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Named III Corps M1917


Nickman983
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Nickman983

Just got this in the mail today. Took a chance on it so I'd like to hear what others think of this helmet. The texturing on the helmet is overall in great condition. Only issues are a few blemishes and storage wear. The liner and chinstrap are overall in good condition with the leather on both being supple. Overall the condition of this helmet is much nicer than my other M1917.

 

The inside brim of the helmet is marked "Wag. C. Stander" which I think would mean Wagoner C. Stander (If my interpretation is incorrect please let me know!).

 

Additionally, the vet decided to write AEF in a triangle on the inside of the brim.

 

I've looked at all three markings under a loupe and under a black light. I'm having a hard time picking out any micro cracking on the paint so I'm not sure if this is something to be concerned about or if it's OK considering the overall good condition of the helmet and the. I think the wear on the paint under the brim looks OK and additionally none of the painted markings shined under a black light.

 

I'm wondering what other's have to say about this one. If everything looks good I was wondering if anyone could point me towards some resources for researching the name painted on the helmet.

 

Here's an imgur link to the full quality versions of these images https://imgur.com/a/aQFFTFW

 

 

post-169952-0-75290300-1557379488.jpg

post-169952-0-32286500-1557379493.jpg

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I have no problem with the painting on the underside of the helmet. Looks legit. I am reasonably confident your man is Carroll Clifford Stander, a Wagoner in the Medical Department, 339th Ambulance Co., 310th Sanitary Train, 85th Division. He was from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

 

That said, I am perplexed by the 3rd Corps insignia. My first reaction was, "You are thinking too much. No one would fake a 3rd Corps insignia." But, it does look unusually bright compared to the rest of the helmet.

 

But that's not the biggest red flag. The history doesn't folllow, though the road is full of incomplete paths. The 85th was a "Depot Division" assigned to the FIFTH CORPS. BUT, as a depot division, individuals, groups, and even complete units were sent out where needed. It is POSSIBLE Stander went to a 3rd Corps unit, though his passage back to the states still lists him as a member of the 339th Ambulance Co (a FIFTH Corps-assigned unit).

 

While my first reaction was, "Don't worry so much...," after a couple of days of searching and pondering the question, my opinion is "Hold on to it until you can confirm the 3rd Corps insignia--the underside is fine; the topside, though, needs a bit more 'splainin'."

John

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Nickman983

I have no problem with the painting on the underside of the helmet. Looks legit. I am reasonably confident your man is Carroll Clifford Stander, a Wagoner in the Medical Department, 339th Ambulance Co., 310th Sanitary Train, 85th Division. He was from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

 

That said, I am perplexed by the 3rd Corps insignia. My first reaction was, "You are thinking too much. No one would fake a 3rd Corps insignia." But, it does look unusually bright compared to the rest of the helmet.

 

But that's not the biggest red flag. The history doesn't folllow, though the road is full of incomplete paths. The 85th was a "Depot Division" assigned to the FIFTH CORPS. BUT, as a depot division, individuals, groups, and even complete units were sent out where needed. It is POSSIBLE Stander went to a 3rd Corps unit, though his passage back to the states still lists him as a member of the 339th Ambulance Co (a FIFTH Corps-assigned unit).

 

While my first reaction was, "Don't worry so much...," after a couple of days of searching and pondering the question, my opinion is "Hold on to it until you can confirm the 3rd Corps insignia--the underside is fine; the topside, though, needs a bit more 'splainin'."

John

 

 

 

Wow, thank you for the great information John!

 

I think you may be right on the ID, the seller I bought this from is in Michigan, only about an hour and a half way from Grand Rapids. It is a bit concerning though that Mr. Stander was attached to the Fifth Corps. Luckily I've got another 12 days where I can return it if things really don't smell right.

 

Any suggestions on resources to follow up on to try and confirm whether or not Mr. Stander was assigned to the 3rd Corps during his service? When I get a chance later tonight I'll look at the 3rd Crops insignia again and probably start a thread in the Individual/Unit Research forum to get some further help trying to track down his service history

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It wasn't uncommon for units to transfer between Corps or Armies. I ran across something showing the 339th Ambulance Co. attached to the 6th Corps at some point.

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It wasn't uncommon for units to transfer between Corps or Armies. I ran across something showing the 339th Ambulance Co. attached to the 6th Corps at some point.

 

 

I think this is real good to consider...Especially with a Depot Division. Many of the 85th Division guys were farmed out. I don't really doubt this helmet, I just can't connect the dots yet. As I said before, there is little incentive to fake a 3rd Corps helmet. I think it is possible to overthink what is probably a very legit helmet.

 

john

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Nickman983

Thanks for the information guys, I'll see what more I can find on his service history.

 

Did a quick search for him and found a picture showing Carroll Clifford Stander Sr. in his WWI uniform standing along side his son, Carroll Clifford Stander Jr. in his WWII naval uniform.

post-169952-0-93135400-1557523237_thumb.jpg

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Great sleuthing! It appears our man is wearing a 2nd Army shoulder patch. That doesn't help our plight, at all! Post-Armistice, the 2nd Army was composed of the IV, VI, and IX US Corps and the French XVII Corps (pre-Armistice the US Corps in the 2nd Army were the IV, VI, and VII).

These paths are just not connecting!

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Nickman983

Great sleuthing! It appears our man is wearing a 2nd Army shoulder patch. That doesn't help our plight, at all! Post-Armistice, the 2nd Army was composed of the IV, VI, and IX US Corps and the French XVII Corps (pre-Armistice the US Corps in the 2nd Army were the IV, VI, and VII).

 

These paths are just not connecting!

Hmm, interesting. I'm almost certain that this is the right guy. The photo was uploaded by his grandson and there's also a photo of his gravesite which also marks him as being part of the 339th Ambulance Co.

post-169952-0-05151400-1557527798.jpg

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nice work on finding the photograph of father and son

 

this is what makes this web site and members and hobby so great

 

semper fi

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Nickman983

I've been trying to do some research on this helmet and it seems the Grand Rapids public library may have a good collection on the 339th Ambulance Co. https://www.grpl.org/uploads/grhsc/108.pdf

 

Unfortunately it doesn't look like these resources are available online. Any chance that someone living in the area would be willing to take a peak at some of these records?

 

Also, any other opinions on the paint of the 3rd Corps marking?

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  • 3 years later...

This thread is a bit old but I managed to find the morning reports for the 339th Ambulance Co. and found some more information. It looks like a lot of his time overseas was spent in detached service though I'm still not sure exactly which units he spent time with.

 

August 24th 1918 from duty to DS

72203263_Aug1918snippet01.jpg.c5f1f050c4b9cbf1a7484597face571c.jpg

 

Back to duty on the 28th

1705935832_Aug1918snippet02.jpg.02c6da97cbc8c53f4552c867a58cbcbf.jpg

 

October 6th 1918 he goes on detached service. Not sure what camp that says

1580217107_Oct1918snipit01.jpg.240f8dabe4f2c2c1d52bfea6a6cf3afa.jpg

 

To duty with Co. on October 19th 1918

1371582383_Oct1918snipit02.jpg.c7c992888906585c235efa3e7044e73c.jpg

 

From here I lost him a bit in the morning reports. It's possible he's listed in there and I just can't read the hand writing.

 

Looks like he's listed as "carried on ds" on December 30th 19181654513560_Dec1918Snippet.jpg.3502cd16ca590566e02f9b29ebd35317.jpg

 

On detached service again January 21st 1919

1421955614_Jan1919snippet.jpg.8cfd11f97605b0ebe31f546e581833dd.jpg

 

back to duty on the 28th

1533227429_Jan1919snippet02.jpg.81d8a563cd07ac33deea8ed9466f485e.jpg

 

From here I lose him again so he either stayed with the 338th Ambulance Co. or I'm just not seeing him listed.

 

While reading through the reports I also saw a lot of guys being assigned to 2nd Army from Nov 1918 onwards, which could help explain the 2nd Army patch he's wearing in the photo with his son.

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There are 13 separate muster roll hits for him on familysearch.org (free signup, though you are giving your basic data to the LDS in doing so). 

 

He was still with the 339th in April of 1919 when they returned: 

image.png.3dfeae85e2615d43ce1dc02199a2accb.png 

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I agree with Jag's initial post.  The paint underneath is excellent and appealling.

 

I doubt that the 3rd Corps paint is original.  It doesn't have the right look.....and although it is true that it's not a rare unit to try to fake, I've collected 308th Engineer stuff in Ohio for a long time.  That unit, as well as most of the other 308th numbered support units from the 83rd Division were detached to the 3rd Corps.  They always have 3rd Corps patches on their uniforms...and I've only ever seen a 5 or so 3rd Corps painted helmets from any of them.  Usually, they are just plain.

 

Depending on what you paid, it still might be worth it to keep it...but.

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2 hours ago, AustinO said:

There are 13 separate muster roll hits for him on familysearch.org (free signup, though you are giving your basic data to the LDS in doing so). 

 

He was still with the 339th in April of 1919 when they returned: 

image.png.3dfeae85e2615d43ce1dc02199a2accb.png 

Thanks for the information, I actually found the muster records for his departure and return ships at some point. I knew he was with the 339th when coming back home but there's a gap between January 28th and April 10th when the 339th boards the SS Zeppelin so I'm not sure if he got detached one more time in that period.

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1 hour ago, MAW said:

I agree with Jag's initial post.  The paint underneath is excellent and appealling.

 

I doubt that the 3rd Corps paint is original.  It doesn't have the right look.....and although it is true that it's not a rare unit to try to fake, I've collected 308th Engineer stuff in Ohio for a long time.  That unit, as well as most of the other 308th numbered support units from the 83rd Division were detached to the 3rd Corps.  They always have 3rd Corps patches on their uniforms...and I've only ever seen a 5 or so 3rd Corps painted helmets from any of them.  Usually, they are just plain.

 

Depending on what you paid, it still might be worth it to keep it...but.

 

Thanks for the insight. It's an odd one for sure, everything underneath looks good, I actually found Mr. Stander's fist initial and last name written on the chinstrap recently with the help of a blacklight which was a nice surprise. The 3rd Corps insignia is very clean compared to the paint on the underside though.

 

It's still odd to me that someone would fake the insignia on the front given how easily identifiable the helmet is. Assuming it's not original, I'm wondering if it was possibly done post 1919, maybe at a reunion or by the family later in life?

 

In either case, I got the helmet back in 2019 for about $110. A little late now if I wanted to return it haha but I'm not all that concerned given that the underside looks good and I've got a positive ID on it.

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2 hours ago, Nickman983 said:

Thanks for the information, I actually found the muster records for his departure and return ships at some point. I knew he was with the 339th when coming back home but there's a gap between January 28th and April 10th when the 339th boards the SS Zeppelin so I'm not sure if he got detached one more time in that period.

 

You're referring to his transportation records, these are the monthly muster rolls for the unit, 13 months consecutive. 

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