A few pieces of field gear pieces that I will be picking up

[Duffy]

I have been looking at these two CISO manufactured magazine pouches for a while, finally I think

I'm going to give it a go.....together they will run around $ 55 cdn.

Just something else I wish to share.....

Cheers.

Duffy

 

 

 

 

[Bill in VA]

Just out of curisoity, what are these pouches for? I have a couple in my collection, and found that they'll fit six Sten magazines and a box loader in the little pocket...quite handy when I'm out shooting but I'm sure they were intended for something else.

[craig_pickrall]

I've always heard they were for Carbine mags. I didn't know of the CISO connection until now. That is good news. At one point there were hundreds of these on the market.

[Duffy]

These are CISO (counter insurgency support office) produced, made in Okinawa Japan

for CIDG (civilian irregular defence group).

 

You can fit a variety of magazines in these, a few are:

 

* M3 / M3A1 Grease Gun

* M1A1 Thompson

* Stens

* IMI made Uzi's

* Carl Gustav M45

* M2 Carbine "30 rd"

 

These pouches come in a few styles, the hardest one to find is the one pictured which has ties as the closures.

Then there is one with a snap button closure and one with a buckle type closure.

 

These pouches were sterile, no markings at all.

 

I have seen one example, where it is identical to the ties version, as pictured....but it has a U.S stencil on the front.

I wouldn't touch this. These were always void of any markings.

Cheers.

 

Duffy

[sgtmonroe]

These pouches come in a few styles

 

A friend of mine uses his [he has a few with the buckle closure] to carry S&W M76 magazines [will hold 6] and AK magazines [will hold three].

 

Here is an image from late 1964 of an SF advisor with 'yard troops. One has a variant of the CISO pouch for use with M3 magazines.

 

[Duffy]

sgtmonroe,

 

You are correct with having said that this pouch will fit smith and wesson model 76 mags, and ak47 mags.

Only thing is, the model 76 is post war....so you wouldn't find any of the pouches you see in your photo, full with such mags during the war in Vietnam.

For AK47 mags being carried in these pouches, there is the possibility cidg carried such....these guys carried pretty much anything. I have even seen a few with chinese type 53 carbines, which is the chi-com version of the soviet mosin-nagant Model 1944 carbine.

For your photo, that happens to be Special Forces Captain Vernon Gillespie Jr....circa 1964 if I remember correctly.

He was featured in LIFE magazine. I have seen many photos of this guy, maybe about 60.

For CISO related gear, there were quite a few types of pouches made.

Duffy

[sgtmonroe]

Only thing is, the model 76 is post war....

 

Actually that is incorrect. The Smith & Wesson Model 76 Submachine Gun was utilized by U.S. Navy SEALs during the Vietnam War. It was manufactured from 1967 through 1974 - according to some sources it was initially manufactured because of U.S. Navy interest.

 

As far as my friend carrying the mags - he's not a collector or reenactor - he just owns a large quantity of machine guns and found the CISO pouches are very utilitarian. He did not even know what they were until I told him.

[Duffy]

sgtmonroe,

 

I don't want to argue here, but that smith and wesson model 76 you are speaking about came out pretty much

post war. It may have seen the final, final days of Vietnam....but I have never seen this, ever.

Some weapons are designated a specific model due to the year of development, where as some are not...this one is.

Having said this, let's say it came out in late 1975....that would still fall short of having anything to do with Vietnam.

Also, why was the Smith and Wesson model 76 made? Do you know?

It was developed for use by U.S special forces units, not just Navy Seals.....although many photos depict such.

During Vietnam, a stockpile of Carl Gustav M45's were purchased and given as issue weapons to the CIDG.

Having such an impact with it's reliability and performance, it was evergrown to being used by a large number of SOG teams.

The CIA had suppressors produced for these as well.....

Anyhow, before we end up in a seperate topic, the Swedish Government put a stop to selling the Carl Gustavs to the United States, as they did not believe in the war.

Having said this, Smith and Wesson took on it's own design, which was in fact a U.S made version of the Carl Gustav M45.

Parts were getting increasingly scarce for the M45's.....so that is why Smith and Wesson chose to continue the design of the weapon by making their own piece, but manufactured in the United States, where replacement parts could easily be made and supplied.

 

Duffy

[sgtmonroe]

Having said this, let's say it came out in late 1975...

 

No going to argue - but - Huh? I just said its manufacturing began in 1967. My friends paperwork on his shows it was originally purchased from Smith & Wesson in 1968. You can not lie on ATF paperwork - otherwise you go to Federal Prison.

[Duffy]

sgtmonroe,

 

I appreciate you not wanting to argue this out towards each other, but there is no way

in my opinion, that there were any made in 1968.

The problem with the whole spare parts issue for the Carl Gustav M45s never really hit hard enough until '68

or '69.....why would they have been making the Smith and Wesson Model 76 already? There would have been no need until the end of the war, where a new sub machine gun would need to have been made as a replacement.

Duffy

[Duffy]

sgtmonroe,

 

I just referenced this......in 1967 Smith and Wesson had produced a clone of the Carl Gustav m45

towards the development of a new, domestic made smg, for the U.S Navy....due to Swedens negative

interest in the war in Vietnam (like I have already said earlier).

The same year, the U.S Navy dropped interest and requirement.

Whatever was made, was sold and used by Civilians and Law Enforcement until '74 until laws changed in 1986.

However, if you would like more info. on this, let me know and I'll see what I can pull up.

But....with the points I have listed, despite the earliest clones being made in 1967, I hope you can agree with me on how this weapon never did see service in the Republic of Vietnam.

Back to the one you know of being on paper, dated 1968.......nice gun, but it never saw service and should not be used for a SEAL display during the Vietnam war.

 

Duffy

[filupe]

I might refer you guys to Kevin Dockery's 'Special Warfare, Special Weapons' (subtitled 'The Arms & Equipment of the UDT and SEALS from 1943 to the present') ISBN 1-883476-00-3. IMHO he is *the* authority on this subject. I won't say who is wrong or right on the subject of the S & W Model 76 SMG, you will have to look it up for yourselves.

[Duffy]

We are getting off topic regardless. This topic was originally started for the conversation on a bunch of pouches....

not for a contest of who knows best about Smith and Wesson Model 76 Smgs.

My point to end this, was despite any manufacture that may have become during the war in Vietnam, the Model 76 was a Model 76 because of the year of manufacture and Patents......this wepon was not in Vietnam in my own opinion based on the facts I have on this subject.

I don't care about the Model 76 personally, it's a nice gun but at the same time....I don't put much emphasis on wanting to know every little detail.

These CISO pouches were not intended to carry these magazines in any which way during the Vietnam war at least.

Whatever they were used for post war should not be added to this.

Duffy

[sgtmonroe]

I might refer you guys to Kevin Dockery's 'Special Warfare, Special Weapons' (subtitled 'The Arms & Equipment of the UDT and SEALS from 1943 to the present') ISBN 1-883476-00-3. IMHO he is *the* authority on this subject. I won't say who is wrong or right on the subject of the S & W Model 76 SMG, you will have to look it up for yourselves.

 

A very good source indeed. I have not seen the book but you are correct about Dockery being the authority on the subject. I spoke with him once back in the 80's - very nice gentleman. He is one of the few people that proportedly has an image of a Model 76 in use by a Navy SEAL DURING the Vietnam War.

 

Also there is a very good book by Lt.Cmd. Mike Walsh [a retired Navy SEAL] - the book is called SEAL! - in which he recounts the Model 76 being used during Vietnam.

 

My point to end this, was despite any manufacture that may have become during the war in Vietnam, the Model 76 was a Model 76 because of the year of manufacture and Patents......this wepon was not in Vietnam in my own opinion based on the facts I have on this subject.

 

That logic doesn't make much sense as the Model 76 is not designated "76" because of the year of manufacture. Smith and Wesson assigned it that number so it would not interfere with the pistol and revolver numbers [10, 20, 30, 50, 60, etc.] they had at the time. With that logic I would have to assume the M14 rifle was manufactered in 1914 and the M16 rifle was manufactured in 1916.

 

I do understand that you believe it was not used during the Vietnam War. I choose to believe it did serve because of photographic evidence and veteran accounts. I also understand that the CISO pouches were not originally manufactured for use for the Model 76 - but they were not manufactured for use for the UZI either. The pouches were, as you stated, for indig use.

 

For trivia sake, the Navy designation of the Model 76 was the Mk 24, Mod 0.

 

Also, just for fun, here is some of the paperwork on my friends 1968 manufactured Model 76 - where it was originally sold to the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office [where I am currently employed] in 1969.

 

[craig_pickrall]

I might refer you guys to Kevin Dockery's 'Special Warfare, Special Weapons' (subtitled 'The Arms & Equipment of the UDT and SEALS from 1943 to the present') ISBN 1-883476-00-3. IMHO he is *the* authority on this subject. I won't say who is wrong or right on the subject of the S & W Model 76 SMG, you will have to look it up for yourselves.

 

I checked my copy for the quick answer. It shows it as a Vietnam weapon that had production models out by June, 1968 even though pre-production models were in the hands of SEALs earlier.

 

For better defination of dates I did a google search and received 2380 hits on "Smith and Wesson M76". It was determined that the gun was produced from 1967 to 1974. S&W stopped production because the Navy had no use for continued production after the Vietnam war. The gun remained in use by the teams until the early 80's and by the late 80's had disappeared. In the early 80's spare parts were getting scarce so SEAL Team 1 contracted with a manufacturer to produce the much needed parts.

 

It was determined that the 76 had nothing to do with a production date.

[Duffy]

Thanks for the additional input on this topic, but I think it has gone way past the original purpose,

which was to share a few pouches, of CISO manufacture.

I appreciate the facts that were stated here by everyone, I would like to say that I am in the wrong

obviously for stating how it was the year of designation and manufacture, SEALS are not my genre...so these

things happen.

If I were to have made this topic on " Pouches of the SEALS"....and have been wrong then....I would feel like

a fool, but in the case I don't....but I admit to my mistake.

I guess what I was trying to get across as a point, was to ensure that these smgs (the model 76), were not something that was heavily used over in Vietnam.

Now, with yourselves having said certain information on actual Veteran accouns, I personally believe that nobody should dare argue with you, if in fact you have had been told that there was some usage of such a weapon, as in this case....the Model 76.

However, another point I would like to make is that I do not feel that the Model 76 should be fully considered as a weapon that saw a good amount of service, regardless of it being in inventory.....due to it's limited nature.

For instance, the IMI manufactured UZI......these were in fact, in the inventories of SOG.

But....they were not exactly the type of personal preference of many, but were at least accounted for, towards knowledge of existance.

I compare this somewhat to the Model 76.

If there are not photos of such being used, other than what a few Veterans may have....then I can only hope you will see where I am coming from, with all of this.

Let's say a person is creating a display of SEALS, and has 10 mannequins....and the collector put's a Smith and Wesson Model 76 on each and every one of them.....anyone who knows about SEALS in Vietnam, are most likely going to say " Hey, thats not right..."

Let's say another person is creating a display of units who worked with one another during the Vietnam war, and the collector put's Carl Gustav M45's on each and every one of them.....once again, anyone who knows about particular units in Vietnam, are going to say " Hey, thats not right either".

My question is why?

Because, the Model 76 was not a heavily used piece, just as much as the IMI made UZI wasn't....these are just weapons that, in this case of me learning something new today with this topic and the new posts that you have contributed, were not commonly issued weapons of course, more so of a specialty.

Having said this, back to the pouches I listed....the most common types of magazines that would have been encountered with these, would be:

 

- Grease Gun

- Thompson

- Swedish K

 

But, would fit several others.

Thanks for your posts once again, cheers.

Duffy