P-59A Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share #26 Posted February 16, 2019 As he has one Service Stripe, one Service Stripe = 3 to 5 years service, and he is a E-6, there's a good possibility he was a Shake and Bake . U.S. Army NCO Candidate Course Beginning in 1967 at Fort Benning, Georgia, the Non-commissioned Officer Candidate Course (NCOCC) was a war era program developed to alleviate shortages of enlisted leaders at squad and platoon level assignments, training enlisted personnel to assume jobs as squad leaders in combat. Based loosely on the Officer Candidate School (OCS), NCOC was a new concept (at the time) where high performing trainees attending basic infantry combat training were nominated to attend a two-phased course of focused instruction on jungle warfare, and included a hands-on portion of intense training, promotion to sergeant, and then a 12-week assignment leading trainees going through advanced training. Long serving soldiers who had received their promotion through traditional methods (and others) used the derisive term for these Trainees, who were both Enlistees and Draftees, and were promoted after completion of the course to E-5 or even sometimes E-6, as "Instant NCOs", or more popularly "Shake n Bakes". The program proved to be so successful that as the war began to wind down they elected to institutionalize training non-commissioned officers and created the NCO Education System (NCOES), which was based around the NCO candidate course. The NCO candidate course generally ended in May 1971 with the run down of army ground combat forces in South Vietnam. For me to say "Wow! I didn't know that!" gets kind of old, cuz I say that all the time. I have no idea of were this "well of knowledge" is you draw from, but man that's one deep well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted February 16, 2019 Share #27 Posted February 16, 2019 For me to say "Wow! I didn't know that!" gets kind of old, cuz I say that all the time. I have no idea of were this "well of knowledge" is you draw from, but man that's one deep well! I know all about Shake n Bakes as do all others interested in this period, but the narrative I posted was copyed and pasted from a wiki for ease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7thEvac Posted February 16, 2019 Share #28 Posted February 16, 2019 As to the 8th ID in Germany, I think they had the 509th, at least in 1969. My squad leader in X-ray Tech school at Ft. Sam in July, 1969 was from that unit. He did a tour with the 101st in Vietnam, then went to 509th in the 8th ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted February 17, 2019 Share #29 Posted February 17, 2019 Above the left pocket it looks 3 wide and two high with a 7th ribbon centered above the two rows of three and near that what looks like the spot for jump wings. What are the ribbons that would likely be here? No holes foer a CIB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #30 Posted February 17, 2019 Is the CIB above or below the jump wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static line Posted February 17, 2019 Share #31 Posted February 17, 2019 One other thing, If this guy served his 6 years only that would mean he was promoted one grade every year. What could account for that? 6 years to E6 isn't especially uncommon, now or then. Over 30,000 NCOs attended the NCO Candidate Course at Ft Benning. Referencing this paper (https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a631461.pdf) it indicates that "the average NCOC Graduate had five months of military service under his belt and most entered the course with the rank of E2 and/or E3. The average was 20 1/2 years old with one year of college". Battlefield promotions were also in existence during Vietnam. In the modern era, E1-E4 advancements are every 6 months (assuming the Soldier does their part and stays out of trouble). E5 by year 3-4 is pretty normal, and E6 around the 6 year mark certainly isn't anything unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #32 Posted February 17, 2019 6 years to E6 isn't especially uncommon, now or then. Over 30,000 NCOs attended the NCO Candidate Course at Ft Benning. Referencing this paper (https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a631461.pdf) it indicates that "the average NCOC Graduate had five months of military service under his belt and most entered the course with the rank of E2 and/or E3. The average was 20 1/2 years old with one year of college". Battlefield promotions were also in existence during Vietnam. In the modern era, E1-E4 advancements are every 6 months (assuming the Soldier does their part and stays out of trouble). E5 by year 3-4 is pretty normal, and E6 around the 6 year mark certainly isn't anything unusual. This brings me to next class A I am going to post. It' a 1st Cav patch on the right and a "Follow me" patch on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #33 Posted February 17, 2019 No holes foer a CIB? Ok, I do have holes that line up to a CIB, but they are below the holes for a jump wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #34 Posted February 17, 2019 When I looked inside the sleeves you can see impressions for different ranks at least three. when you look at the clutch back holes they are all over the place. It looks like this was his one and only jacket and he just changed what was on it over time. It's hard to read. I can see three different places he wore his jump wing 2 1/2 inch's apart and I can find holes that line up to a CIB above the lower jump wing holes. Look were the the tear on the inside is, those holes line up to a CIB and if you look at the centered holes above and below that, those line up to jump wings. I have no idea what came first, the Basic CIB or the jump wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted February 17, 2019 Share #35 Posted February 17, 2019 When I looked inside the sleeves you can see impressions for different ranks at least three. when you look at the clutch back holes they are all over the place. It looks like this was his one and only jacket and he just changed what was on it over time. It's hard to read. I can see three different places he wore his jump wing 2 1/2 inch's apart and I can find holes that line up to a CIB above the lower jump wing holes. Look were the the tear on the inside is, those holes line up to a CIB and if you look at the centered holes above and below that, those line up to jump wings. I have no idea what came first, the Basic CIB or the jump wing., Is there ghosts of removed and resewn shoulder patches?, primarily on the left shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted February 17, 2019 Share #36 Posted February 17, 2019 Basically everything we say here is pure speculation because we don't know who this soldier was and we don't have his service record, but here's my best guess on what would have been on the left chest of uniform (minus any attachments to the ribbons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #37 Posted February 17, 2019 Is there ghosts of removed and resewn shoulder patches?, primarily on the left shoulder. Yes sir it has a ghost image of another patch and tab on the left and only the sewing of the patch on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #38 Posted February 17, 2019 Basically everything we say here is pure speculation because we don't know who this soldier was and we don't have his service record, but here's my best guess on what would have been on the left chest of uniform (minus any attachments to the ribbons). rack.png Thanks Matt, Is the Air Medal ribbon correct? Just asking...cuz "I didn't know that" just popped out of my mouth again. : ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted February 17, 2019 Share #39 Posted February 17, 2019 I've seen many on Vietnam uniforms, especially for being inserted by helicopter X number of times. I would think a 173rd/82nd guy rode on an aircraft more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #40 Posted February 17, 2019 I've seen many on Vietnam uniforms, especially for being inserted by helicopter X number of times. I would think a 173rd/82nd guy rode on an aircraft more than once. Thank you Matt, I have been looking for on line posts and photo's and much to my surprise not much in the way of Vietnam era Class A"s are posted. Thanks again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted February 17, 2019 Share #41 Posted February 17, 2019 Every uniform that I've seen from a combat team member of Company D 151st Infantry (Ranger) had an air medal. See: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105750-company-d-ranger-151st-inf-indiana-rangers/?hl=%2Bindiana+%2Brangers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted February 17, 2019 Share #42 Posted February 17, 2019 Yes sir it has a ghost image of another patch and tab on the left and only the sewing of the patch on the right. A recycled coat is the best guess then, acquired for what ever reason by him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #43 Posted February 17, 2019 A recycled coat is the best guess then, acquired for what ever reason by him. Wouldn't that ghost image be from the 173rd patch? I'll see if I can get some pics that show the old stitch lines with the 82nd sewn over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share #44 Posted February 17, 2019 Every uniform that I've seen from a combat team member of Company D 151st Infantry (Ranger) had an air medal. See: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105750-company-d-ranger-151st-inf-indiana-rangers/?hl=%2Bindiana+%2Brangers That is a fantastic link and an amazing museum you guys have!!! Thanks for the link up!!! Now that I see a wing on the pocket flap this makes sense. The shooting qualification pins are not wide enough to make these holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted February 17, 2019 Share #45 Posted February 17, 2019 Thanks! I don't have much experience with 173rd Vietnam uniforms, but I imagine the Indiana Rangers wore pretty similar decorations and qualification badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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