WWII Square "Brit-Made" 503rd PIR Patches

[Kadet]

I've started threads like this before that turned in to interesting discussions. Collector lore holds that the blue, square "cat-in-a-chute" patches were British made for the contingent of 503rd guys that went to England and formed the 509th. There is also another version of this patch that some consider a (perhaps) post war "Boots" product. What makes the first type of British origin? Is it the manufacturing style? Documented examples in 509th groups? Some other factual first hand account? It would be interesting to lay out the actual facts surrounding this patch. Here are two to get started. I believe both are the style typically considered Brit-made. Thoughts and other examples would be appreciated!

[Kadet]

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[Kadet]

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[Kadet]

Here is some other food for thought:

 

-The early wool version that I believe is photographically documented being worn by the 503rd

 

- A PX/Novelty Parachute Infantry patch of WWII vintage

[Kadet]

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[Kadet]

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[Kadet]

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[KurtA]

Re: reverse view of patch in post #2. Whenever I see cheesecloth backing like that, I assume US-made.

[Kadet]

Re: reverse view of patch in post #2. Whenever I see cheesecloth backing like that, I assume US-made.

Me too...in fact, these "Brit-Made" 503rd patches don't really have any Brit characteristics to my eye. They are also rather cheaply and crudely made...Also interesting to note that the square blue one's design is similar to the (probably) copyrighted Disney image, but lacks the round shape, colors, parachute design and aviator cap.

[phillock]

Hi friends

 

Here is a thread regarding the patch and history 503/509 discussion check Post#14 for added info.

 

Confusing to say the least my thoughts on the square, is patches were made in England (1942 first US Airborne unit in England and they had to have a design of their own) and one was US made sold post March 1945 based on Roy Paris Supplement Catalogue and other collector clubs/Boots so there could be a few slight variations in construction and design based on the original.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/288246-503rd-patch-picture-help/?hl=509th&do=findComment&comment=2318819

 

As you would expect with the different country embroidered construction , Brits would of used silk thread, melton wool or thin to medium felt paste backed from a local tailor,US Rayon thread,cheese cloth backing felt backed etc..,

 

Phill

[mortaydc60]

Is it now safe to say that the one posted here is British made finally, especially after what Phil just posted and the webmaster of the 509 site stated.

[phillock]

Hi Mort

 

I only referred to the fact there would of been the British made designed (1942) and US made late war post War.

 

The image I posted came from Roy Paris Texas (supplement), the original catalog was March 1945.

 

The one's in this post do not have the British look and feel. The construction, white open weave/cheese cloth backing and thread appears to be rayon.

 

Matt added:

"I can say that the 2/503^rd made the square cat patch in England but never wore it. It is only found in with things Veterans brought back who had served in England. Once the news caught up with them in North Africa that they were no longer the 2/503^rd but rather the 2/509^th they no longer used the cat patch. It was not until Italy that they sought to come up with a new patch to represent their regiment. The now famous “little man in the door”."

 

I want to show examples of typical British private purchase embroidered formation signs for reference (hopefully the topic won't be locked).

 

Note the typical black cloth backing backing on Combined Ops and Iceland Force.

 

The paste back on Peggy.

 

Iceland force has the cross over threads.

 

I'm afraid this won't be the definitive answer but more of an open discussion.

 

Phill

 

 

 

[Kadet]

Phill, this was my point in starting the thread I guess. The "Brit-Made" 503rd patches simply never looked the part to me, although it is a convenient and more lucrative explanation for them. If you place one next to a blue PX patch like the one I posted the similarities are striking though. The wool material, pale blue color, thread type/color and cheese cloth backing are pretty much identical. I think the "Brit-Made" 503rd patches of the style I posted were actually US made PX/novelty items and were essentially knock offs of the Disney designed 503rd insignia.

[phillock]

Hi Kadet

 

When you read 503/509th history it was confusing then as it is now due to the redesignation, orders,timeline, countries involved-England, North Africa,Tunisia and Italy.

 

Until one can see with provenance from a veteran grouping, images,with a British made patch that has traits of the above or other known British embroidery styles, the ones you tend to see are more US made.

 

I will add the British did have schiffli embroidery factories in Nottingham and Macclesfield as well as in Scotland.

 

I don't know if" knock offs" is the term to be used, because how would collector clubs/manufacturers have known with the confusion at the time, it would of had to come from reliable sources due to the obscure nature and elite status. They would of been sold to Veterans,reunion meets, collectors 1945-48 period when there was a patriotic boom in patch collecting.

 

I would be happy to own your Brit /US made blue squared combative cat as representative of both unit 's WWII service and also I would be happy to pay a full 1 US dollar,thats a 30% increase on what was in the Roy Paris catalogue!!

 

Phill

[Kadet]

Thanks Phill, perhaps Knock off is the wring term. I do think these were made during the war alongside the parachute infantry patch I posted, and perhaps by the same maker.

[Kadet]

Here is another piece of definitely US-made insignia to contemplate in the context of the blue, square 503rd patches...hmmm

[Kadet]

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[Tom Kibler]

I just came across this thread. Here is a photo of Wilbur B*A*N*K*S, A Co. 551st PIB. I do NOT have a date for this photo, BUT... it is studio marked and taken state-side in Harrisburg, PA. I believe he was assigned to the 503rd prior to his reassignment to the 551st. He was in Panama prior to going to England and taking part in Operation Dragoon, August 1944. He was KIA in France, January 1945, while attached to the 82nd.

[Longhorn92]

Great pic, Tom. As a newer collector this particular patch and its origins and use have been confusing to me.

 

Even the really good reference books can have conflicting info.

 

Excellent info here and I just added one to my collection!

[Allan H.]

My take on these patches is that I have always believed that they were US made. I believe the fact that the manufacturer used black bobbin thread is what has made collectors believe that this was a British made piece. Without having the 100% provenance that they were manufactured in England, has made me skeptical as well. Phillock has done an outstanding job of documenting the reason that the square patch isn't English made. It doesn't follow any of the hallmarks of an English-made patch except that it is made with black bobbin thread. The felt is decidedly American. As Phillock says, if it were English, I would expect the base material to be much thinner, like all of the formation signs.

 

Tom Kibler- FANTASTIC photo! Thanks a million for sharing that with the group!

 

The circular jumping cat fully embroidered on OD wool was an early insignia and I have been fortunate enough to get two of them in groupings. One came from a 503rd vet who served in the Pacific, and one from a 509th PIB veteran who served in the ETO. You can say that that patch was worn by two different units in two theaters. The designation of that patch is the 503rd PIR and the 509th PIB was re-designated as such after deploying to England as the 2nd Battalion of the 503rd.

 

Allan

[Tom Kibler]

It is interesting to note, that B*A*N*K*S "pinned" the patch on his shoulder.... it is not sewn there.

[Kadet]

Thanks, I also feel that these patches were US made. If I understand the Bank's timeline correctly, there is no way he could have acquired this patch in the UK. Have you ever ID'd the oval? It is interesting too. From the photo it appears to be made of multiple pieces. The dark center portion has an irregular shape and seems to extend over the underlying light color along the top edge...

[Tom Kibler]

I have not. I know that according to his nephew, he returned home from Panama (leave ?), prior to England. For me, the oval is not sewn to the shirt (like the patch) and is simply held in place by the pin device on the wings, and as a result, is slightly folded over. I wish I knew what it was. I can try and scan a better quality image of the oval and patch tonight.

[Kadet]

Thanks Tom...that is a great photo BTW!