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45th Chaplain Helmet - Thoughts / Update

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From a model rocket forum:

 

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/painting-dos-and-donts-mixing-laquer-and-enamel.32628/

 

"Generally speaking, you don't want to apply LACQUERS over ENAMELS. This is because the solvents used in lacquers are MUCH "hotter" (stronger, faster evaporating) than enamel solvents, and the lacquer solvents can 'dissolve' the enamel paint underneath them, leading to "alligatoring" or cracking or other things that TOTALLY ruin the paint finish."


Eric

ASMIC #5492

 

Are you a militaria collector in PA, NJ or DE? If so, please feel free to join my "Delaware Valley Militaria Collectors" page on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/MilitariaCollectorsOfDelawareValley#!/groups/DELVALMILITARIA/

 

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That looks like incompatible paints to me, like lacquer over enamel.

Interesting, why are only some parts of the red raised like veins ?

If all the red is enamel would the whole insignia be raised ?


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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From a model rocket forum:

 

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/painting-dos-and-donts-mixing-laquer-and-enamel.32628/

 

"Generally speaking, you don't want to apply LACQUERS over ENAMELS. This is because the solvents used in lacquers are MUCH "hotter" (stronger, faster evaporating) than enamel solvents, and the lacquer solvents can 'dissolve' the enamel paint underneath them, leading to "alligatoring" or cracking or other things that TOTALLY ruin the paint finish."

Now that is interesting !!


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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Bugme, what are your thoughts on the paint based on these new photos?

Thank you for your thoughts in advance.

As I shared with several collectors who PM'd me concerning this helmet, including you Anton, the type and size of the crazing/cracking paint is something that can be faked. It is something done when lacquer is sprayed over enamel. A chemical reaction occurs in which the lacquer molecules shrink tighter than the enamel base. I worked in the automotive paint industry for years and this is what you NEVER want to have happen when fixing a car. That said, this can also occur in an Army repo-depot. Without having it in hand, I can only say that it has possibilities. If legit, I think it is a post war repaint.

 

I also find it interesting that I shared this information with some of the guys posting here via PM's several days ago and now they are posting like authorities on the subject. You guys are letting your true character show. Please don't bother to try to explain yourself, it will only make you look worse. And people wonder why I don't say much in the helmet forum anymore.


"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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As well as different types of paints or the thinners can react to each other.This can cause lifting, cracking, separation etc.

Scott

 

I mentioned the same on January 18th but in less detail....either it wasnt read or ignored as cause of the paint structure.Two dissimilar paints will react and "wrinkle" the paint.Almost like oil and water...at times some items wont blend well.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Thank you for the responses. I had hoped the better photos would be more helpful to the discussion.

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Scott

 

I mentioned the same on January 18th but in less detail....either it wasnt read or ignored as cause of the paint structure.Two dissimilar paints will react and "wrinkle" the paint.Almost like oil and water...at times some items wont blend well.

I saw your post Ron and the same guys who asked me via PM pretty much ignored your post also. No one wants to address the painfully obvious issue here. So, they ignored responding to you, politely thanked me and then act all pious and wise posting here. Am I mad? OH YEAH! I have had it, I stayed quiet, let the little kids play authority but that has come to an end. They glean from and use other collectors to build themselves up. Those guys will be called out by name the next time they pull this.


"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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Google is saying that lacquer and enamel paints were around well before the 1940s, so both of them being available was possible for the timeframe of this helmet. Acrylic apparently wasnt made available until the 1950s.

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I saw your post Ron and the same guys who asked me via PM pretty much ignored your post also. No one wants to address the painfully obvious issue here. So, they ignored responding to you, politely thanked me and then act all pious and wise posting here. Am I mad? OH YEAH! I have had it, I stayed quiet, let the little kids play authority but that has come to an end. They glean from and use other collectors to build themselves up. Those guys will be called out by name the next time they pull this.

Scott

 

Thanks for posting more details on the paint structure.

 

My limited experience is based on a few model builds when I was a kid and seeing at times how model paint(typically enamel) didnt work well with automotive paint out of my dads rattle can stock...lol

 

Also hung around with a friend who's dad ran a body shop.He was painting cars when he was 15.His dad was a paint wizard and this was before all the new high end paints.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Google is saying that lacquer and enamel paints were around well before the 1940s, so both of them being available was possible for the timeframe of this helmet. Acrylic apparently wasnt made available until the 1950s.

Dont think oil base paints and lacquer mix well either... :)

 

As Scott mentioned lacquer is a hotter paint/chemical.As I recall lacquer thinner we used as a paint thinner and cleaner at times to decrease a surface as it cut a lot of other oils or residue and dried fast too.The painters I was around would also add hardners to paint but they knew what worked and what didnt.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Let's ignore the 3 insignia that have had an obvious reaction, and focus on the one clean insignia on the liner.

 

What are the opinions on this insignia? Does the crazing appear more recently created via chemical aging, or does it comply to other period examples? Were you to have to make a decision based on this insignia alone, would you lean towards authentic or away?

 

post-29885-0-03776300-1548359760_thumb.jpg


Eric

ASMIC #5492

 

Are you a militaria collector in PA, NJ or DE? If so, please feel free to join my "Delaware Valley Militaria Collectors" page on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/MilitariaCollectorsOfDelawareValley#!/groups/DELVALMILITARIA/

 

Check me out on Instagram @philly_militaria_collector

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Here's my two-cents. Firstly, Scott and Doyler, apologies if you feel slighted. I don't believe that was the intent. At the end of the day, I think everyone is trying to get to the bottom of this, and sometimes we run in circles as a result, or forget to give credit where credit is due.

 

Doyler, your comment certainly wasn't overlooked, as Mark and I discussed it. Scott was able to provide the additional science behind it.

 

Scott, Mark (Anton) and I have spoken ad nauseam about this helmet offline, and yours was the opinion we've been seeking, as you have a background in helmets, chaplain items and paint. A triple threat, so to speak. Your input wasn't overlooked either.

 

I think Mark was hoping with the better photos, there may be a way to determine if there are signs of this paint being applied 70+ years ago, or 7 months ago, even with the chemical reaction to the paints. I don't know if there is an answer to this. So Mark went to the masses looking for validation.

 

It's a shame this happened with the paint, as I'm really of the opinion that it is a good helmet. Especially with the link via the laundry number. I think someone would have to go to great lengths to fabricate this helmet with the intent to deceive, as they would have to assume someone would know how to track an officer via his laundry #, which is not an easy task (thanks again Rob!). Then braze on the Chaplain insignia, only to remove it. But, as we all know, stranger things have happened; buy the item, not the story.

 

I think this is going to boil down to level of comfort. Is Mark comfortable with it as it lies now? Were it my helmet, I would be, and would continue the research to uncover the story of Col (Chaplain) Harry C Rynard.

 

 

 


Eric

ASMIC #5492

 

Are you a militaria collector in PA, NJ or DE? If so, please feel free to join my "Delaware Valley Militaria Collectors" page on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/MilitariaCollectorsOfDelawareValley#!/groups/DELVALMILITARIA/

 

Check me out on Instagram @philly_militaria_collector

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I saw your post Ron and the same guys who asked me via PM pretty much ignored your post also. No one wants to address the painfully obvious issue here. So, they ignored responding to you, politely thanked me and then act all pious and wise posting here. Am I mad? OH YEAH! I have had it, I stayed quiet, let the little kids play authority but that has come to an end. They glean from and use other collectors to build themselves up. Those guys will be called out by name the next time they pull this.

This is why most of the helmet guys with actual knowledge don't bother posting anymore.

 

But what do I know. I don't even collect helmets ;)

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This is why most of the helmet guys with actual knowledge don't bother posting anymore.

 

But what do I know. I don't even collect helmets ;)

That is so true Justin. Especially the second line. :)

"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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It used to fun to look at and post helmets here on the forum with informed, civil discussions. Now there is no place to go.


Please visit my website at http://www.bbmilitaria.com for a wide selection of quality military antiques!
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I just wanted to thank EVERYONE for their replies.

 

OK. Back to the helmet at hand.

Here are some photos,

I thought you all would be interested since it has been the topic of discussion for four pages now.

I hope you enjoy the updated photos.

post-63438-0-12025900-1548375585_thumb.jpg

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Here is the underside of the where the cross was mounted. You will see the melted stem in the bottom hole (keep in mind you are looking at it upside down so it is really the top hole in the photo where the melted stem is present).

post-63438-0-94118500-1548375840_thumb.jpg

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