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WWII KIA 5th MARDIV Uniform - real?

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Hi all,

 

Was hoping to get some second opinions on this uniform before I pull the trigger. I believe it is collector restored due to the hand sewn patches (no ghosting or outlines of previous patches on the interior), and the fact it has CPL stripes instead of PFC - the rank he was KIA at.

 

That being said I don’t mind it being restored, albeit wrong rank, but wanted opinions on the handwritten inked name and MCSN.

 

I believe, if it is real, it was probably a blank coat with no patches of his, or he never applied them, or sewed them directly the to the wool leaving no ghosting on the interior of the sleeves.

 

Thanks for any help!

 

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Actively collecting 7th Armored Division items, groupings, etc. especially anything dealing with CO B, 23rd AIB

"Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." - Colonel David M. Shoup

 

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You have a uniform with the info of a KIA hand inked on the inside. Are there other items included with the group? Dog tags? PH certifcate?


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Unfortunately, no. Waiting to hear where the uniform was originally acquired. The hand inked name looks period to me, but others have told me they have rarely seen the MCSN let alone “USMCR” inked into coats.

 

 

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Actively collecting 7th Armored Division items, groupings, etc. especially anything dealing with CO B, 23rd AIB

"Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." - Colonel David M. Shoup

 

donation2011.gif

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I've seen quite few marine uniforms and only saw a few with the name and service number written like that. None with USMCR written under like that. Does mean there aren't any but I would use caution .

Mark


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I've seen quite few marine uniforms and only saw a few with the name and service number written like that. None with USMCR written under like that. Does mean there aren't any but I would use caution .

Mark

 

I agree with Mark. I have not seen ANY WWII era USMC uniforms with the USMCR inked in them. Normally only the name (stenciled most of the time) and the year in the sleeve. Not to say that this wouldn't have been done, but I would be a bit cautious of this one. Not to say this one is bad, but have never seen this before.


Always looking for 325th G.I.R. and WWII USMC items!
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I think suspicions are well-warranted. Enough things are weird on this jacket to steer clear IMO. I don’t like how the divisional patch and rank are applied. Not just the surface stitch, but moreso that they are crooked. Military guys are typically very meticulous about their uniforms, and the fact that the patch and rank are on different angles and offset worries me. And what is written in the sleeve is strange. Sure, hand-written IDs were generally at the discretion of the Marine. That said, I have NEVER seen an MCSN comma-separated. It’s subtle, but that number is not a quantity but an identification, so dividing it into 100s columns is weird. Impossible? Surely not, but screwy.

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maybe I am wrong but isn't the bottom row of ribbons backward well actually upside down


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The presence of a victory ribbon seems unlikely on a uniform of a man who did not survive the war.

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Jim the award of the victory medal states that only has to have served one days service from December 7, 1941 until December 31, 1946, so this person would be entitled in my opinion


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I have not seen any like that before. And I own over 70 named uniforms.and I have several Kia. I would be cautious on this one. Most Kia uniforms usually have more than one name in them because most where reissued. But not all.because I have some Kia with one name. But not like yours.marines do not use the periods like the one you have on the way he wrote usmcr.even the Kia medals use one period. Just my thoughts. But there could be some out there.it is all so funny he has a campaign star. Would it be for bougainville since he has jump wings. Plus the ph ribbon would have been added by someone else. Just my 2 cents.


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Collecting Marine Raider Groups

On the battlefield, Pfc Edward Ahrens, an Able Company BAR man, lay dying, soaked in his own blood.

 

As his company commander, Lew Walt cradled him in his arms, he surveyed the scene around them. Nearby lay a Japanese officer, a sergeant, and thirteen enlisted men, all dead. Ahrens had been shot twice in the chest and bayoneted three times. He whispered to Walt, "Captain, they tried to come over me last night, but I don't think they made it." Choking back tears, Walt replied softly, "They didn't, Eddy. They didn't."

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I appreciate the comments all. Some good points I hadn’t thought about. As for the shotty sewing and the wwii victory ribbons, like I said I believe this to be collector restored. I have a few WWII USMC KIA uniforms which I restored to reflect all of the awards that’s they deserve and were entitled to which I think is the case here.

 

Joe, yes the bar is reverse/upside down.

 

Thanks again, all!! Still not sure if a strange anomaly one off original uniform or a poor attempt at a recreation.

 

 

 

 

 

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Actively collecting 7th Armored Division items, groupings, etc. especially anything dealing with CO B, 23rd AIB

"Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." - Colonel David M. Shoup

 

donation2011.gif

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Jim the award of the victory medal states that only has to have served one days service from December 7, 1941 until December 31, 1946, so this person would be entitled in my opinion

 

Yes, but the medal wasn't approved until July 1945 four months after he was kia.

 

Ray


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The more posts like this I read the more I think restoration = fake. Once a so-called restoration or improvement, as some collectors call it, is done and the uniform is owned by two or more successive collectors, all bets on everything being 100% original are off.

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Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46


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Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46

To me, this is completely irrelevant. If youre restoring a uniform, you should probably not include awards that didnt exist when it was being worn by the subject veteran. Posthumous awards have a place, that being in a shadow box. Might just be me, but Im even a bit put off by paintings of KIAs wearing the ribbons of awards conferred after their death - just seems a bit weird.

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I think we are getting hung up on a detail that doesn’t help determine if the uniform, more specifically, the inked name and MCSN, are authentic.

 

Me personally, I can see both perspectives with displaying awards such as the WWII Victory ribbon on KIA uniforms. Their ultimate sacrifice helped lead to the end and allied victory. But at the same time it is important to tell their story accurately.

 

Two ways to look at it, a purist perspective or a tribute perspective. This uniform is quite obvious restored as stated previously - which I don’t have an issue with as long as the markings are legitimate.

 

Just my thoughts,

Haydn

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actively collecting 7th Armored Division items, groupings, etc. especially anything dealing with CO B, 23rd AIB

"Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." - Colonel David M. Shoup

 

donation2011.gif

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I agree that there are only two categories, but mine are a little different: original or not. To each their own, but this notion of a tribute category is a non-starter for me. Where do you draw the line? Any level of messed-with, and its not original, and I dont think there is room for a commemorative category. I mean, heck, let me just get an unnamed Alpha, and make it up to be Chesty Pullers jacket. Its an original USMC tunic, and he was in the Marines. All the insignia is original. Ker-POW! Im being facetious, but the OP tunic is a pale of the same thing. There is stuff on the jacket, if not the jacket itself, that never belonged to the reference Marine. My point is, how much add-on insignia, ribbons, etc, is too much? I say any.

 

 

I think we are getting hung up on a detail that doesnt help determine if the uniform, more specifically, the inked name and MCSN, are authentic.

 

Me personally, I can see both perspectives with displaying awards such as the WWII Victory ribbon on KIA uniforms. Their ultimate sacrifice helped lead to the end and allied victory. But at the same time it is important to tell their story accurately.

 

Two ways to look at it, a purist perspective or a tribute perspective. This uniform is quite obvious restored as stated previously - which I dont have an issue with as long as the markings are legitimate.

 

Just my thoughts,

Haydn

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46

 

True, but they would never had worn them.

 

Ray


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Ray , By your logic then anyone that earns a medal posthumous is in the same boat. Saying they were not alive when the medal was awarded to them.


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Ray , By your logic then anyone that earns a medal posthumous is in the same boat. Saying they were not alive when the medal was awarded to them.

 

Not sure what you are saying but we are discussing the Victory ribbon on a kia uniform. I have two kia groups. Both have the Purple Heart and one a Bronze Star as sent to the family. Neither has a Victory medal or ribbon. What I am saying is that to be the uniform of a kia as he wore it there would be no Victory ribbon or Purple Heart ribbon for the action he was killed in. If he had a previous PH then yes it would be there.

 

Ray


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This is a weird discussion. I have no issue with uniform restorations as long as they are fully disclosed and accurate to the period in which they were worn. A uniform to a KIA obviously should not include the PH awarded for his death. Likewise, the WWII Victory Medal was, by definition, a post war award (think about it). WWII Victory ribbons were almost always awarded at separation centers when the men were being discharged. Again, a KIA uniform should not include this ribbon IMO. I tend to think this uniform is completely restored


I will pay top dollar for original WWII items pertaining to:

 

OSS

OSS Maritime Unit

NCDU

UDT

Scouts and Raiders

FSSF

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