Jump to content

Canteen carried by medic Wayne E. Rapp of D co 507PIR, 82nd ab div, KIA June 22 1944 (Normandy)


ken88
 Share

Recommended Posts

Afraid I also can't see anything here that makes me think the laundry mark and name are 75 year old marks. Just looks like an original cover ruined by a modern sharpy.

100% agree

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...
Barb Rapp

This canteen was carried by my uncle Wayne Edward Rapp, born August 17,1921 in Cincinnati, Ohio. He was killed before I was born.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manayunkman
30 minutes ago, Barb Rapp said:

This canteen was carried by my uncle Wayne Edward Rapp, born August 17,1921 in Cincinnati, Ohio. He was killed before I was born.


Welcome Barb,

 

Great to hear from someone related to Mr. Rapp.

 

As for the canteen with unusual markings, did you ever see it in your family? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barb Rapp

I will have to go through some photos to see if it is in any of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barb Rapp

This is a photo of Wayne E Rapp not positive if this is taken in Alliance, Nebraska or not.

Picture or Video 057.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barb,

 

Thank you so much for replying to this topic. I don't even know where to start, but would like to express my deepest respect for you and your family, and everything your uncle endured during the war.

 

I've always worried about the canteen since the negative comments on it came, unfortunately, I just don't know what to think about it, but am still somewhat convinced the laundry number and name weren't deliberately painted on there with the intention to deceive, as I've stated I bought this canteen from a dealer in Normandy (Sainte-Marie-du-Mont) for the fixed price of around 60€, which is about the price paid for a canteen without any names or laundry numbers on it today.

 

Never was this canteen identified or associated with the paratrooper before I made the purchase, at least not in this particular store. But who knows where it came from before that (the ad did say the canteen was a local find). I simply researched the name, then associated it with the laundry number, and was in disbelief when I found out W.E. Rapp was an airborne medic who gave his life in the area the canteen came from. As your uncle gave his life for his country and our freedom in Normandy somewhere, I am inclined to believe this canteen was indeed his, but I will honestly say the comments have made me doubt the authenticity a lot, which is frustrating since it's a collector's worst nightmare to have stuff put on the fence. Nevertheless I still have the canteen, as for the differences in wear and what not, I still think it's possible that your uncle may have painted his name and laundry on it at a later date, possibly before the invasion as a means of ID in hostile environments, but again, I am really confused, and there's no failsafe way of checking the paint for micro-cracking or something along those lines to further authenticate it, as the paint was applied to fabric, which is less static than steel and may render false-positive or false-negative outcomes because of that.

 

I look forward to finding out more about the canteen, if the guys want me to take more pictures of the canteen, or perhaps check it again under a microscope, in the hopes of attributing this piece to your uncle, I'm all ears. Let me conclude by saying that I have no problem sharing the canteen with you or even passing the canteen. I hope this is enough demonstration of intent for now, I am not here to brag about this canteen just because it may have belonged to a paratrooper, I just bought a canteen and the name and the laundry number on it happen to be undoubtedly associated with this person. I feel a faker would have taken a different approach, which would have been reflected in the advertising and the price, but that's just my opinion. Unfortunately I am still thinking of it as just a canteen because of the rather negative opinions, I'd feel much different about it if the opinions weren't all over. I still think there's a certain bias when it comes to things carried by paratroopers that came out of Normandy of all places, and I get that, serious collectors are rightly concerned and doubtful whenever these things are combined. As frustrating as it is, I've no other choice but to respect those opinions in the end. 

 

Thanks again

Best regards

Ken

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW I just took a closer look at the canteen and it looks like there's an engraving on the back of the canteen itself, but it's very hard to make out. I could however clearly make out capital letters N and E. Not taking the cup out again since the liner/insulation in there is already heavily torn. 

 

Best regards

Ken

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kammo-man

Oh for Gods sake….it’s completely modern markings.
100%
Owen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manayunkman

How about this scenario:

 

The seller knew they were modern (fake) markings and for that reason did not mention them.

 

The seller from Normandy is not an idiot they knew the cover was flawed and weren’t about to sell a fake as real.

 

The markings look like they try to copy original stenciled markings but they are not stenciled, they were applied with magic marker.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for jumping into this late. 

I don't care for the markings. Here's why:

 

The name writing is only on top of the fibers, particularly on the R. While this is not impossible, what is impossible is that the other letters, where it did get into the lower fibers don't show any wear on the top fibers. Contrast that with the maker mark stamp on the bottom of the cover...all that is left is the ink in the lower fibers. Even if Rapp wrote his name lightly, the ink would eventually get into the lower fibers, and more importantly, over 70 years, the top fibers would lose some of the ink...and none of that is missing. Particularly if this ended up in France from a KIA soldier...the assumption would be that it would have been handled considerably during that time, and even if it weren't a "barn find", it would have still had to travel around, be handled, stored, etc. In short, just because he was KIA, the local Frenchman who found this in 1944 didn't hermetically seal it...chances are, this cover was used considerably, as exhibited by the wear to the manufacturer's stamp (which was only a few years older than Rapp's name, yet is almost completely illegible). 

 

I direct attention to the stamps on the other cover. It could be argued that perhaps the stamp ink was of lesser quality than the fabric marker, but it's doubtful. Even in this case, the stamps go into both the lower and upper fibers of the cover and the tops of the fibers show less ink than that of the lower fibers. 

 

In conclusion, I'm not a fan of the markings on the canteen cover. 

 

Dave

Screenshot_102.jpg

Screenshot_101.jpg

Screenshot_100.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel no need to 'defend' this canteen against opinions anymore whatsoever. Think of it what you will. Especially you, kammo-man, I've proven you wrong in other matters. I know you're just here trying to be a wet blanket. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

63 RECON

I always find it interesting in some cases like this that a relative magically pops up in the thread to somehow lend weight to a theory.

 

Were you searching your uncles name on the internet and this thread came up, so you decided to make profile and jump in to support the OP?

 

If you are who you say you are, accept my sincere apologies but for me its waaaay to convenient you jumping in on the thread.

 

As for the markings, they certainly look new. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kammo-man
I feel no need to 'defend' this canteen against opinions anymore whatsoever. Think of it what you will. Especially you, kammo-man, I've proven you wrong in other matters. I know you're just here trying to be a wet blanket. 

??????
Weird personal attack.
Ken 88 you obviously have a screw loose.
Owen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Historical authenticity notwithstanding, is it possible that the markings were applied with black paint and a fine-tipped brush? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No worries Owen. I apologize if I came across disrespectful but it's hard knowing people's real intentions sitting behind a computer screen. Your comments seem disrespectful sometimes but that could be a misinterpretation on my part. Anyway I apologize if my comment came across as too offensive, would hate to get banned from this board over some canteen. Not looking for trouble. I guess opinions can get emotional sometimes. Sorry about that. Please forget what I said. 

 

I don't really mind if the markings on the canteen are modern as I've stated I'm just thinking of it as a canteen now with the comments being bad for the most part, although I still think anything airborne is subject to bias which may not be in this item's best interest. At least the parts are original. Barb's comments did spark some renewed interest in it though, but I realize I won't ever be able to prove anything without any more evidence so yeah I do feel somewhat bad about it. I will admit that. 

 

I think the only hope left for these markings would be the veteran's handwriting, but even then. I believe the canteen could be a reissue, which could mean the veteran only carried it for a little while but yeah good luck proving a theory when all you have is a name and a bunch of bad reviews.

 

Anyway I am sorry if I hurt your feelings but I admit I felt bad feels like a waste of time and energy, I know the canteen stands very little chance at first glance. I rest my case.

 

 

Best regards 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barb Rapp
On 6/11/2021 at 10:03 AM, 63 RECON said:

I always find it interesting in some cases like this that a relative magically pops up in the thread to somehow lend weight to a theory.

 

Were you searching your uncles name on the internet and this thread came up, so you decided to make profile and jump in to support the OP?

 

If you are who you say you are, accept my sincere apologies but for me its waaaay to convenient you jumping in on the thread.

 

As for the markings, they certainly look new. 

Yes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

63 RECON
1 hour ago, Barb Rapp said:

Yes

Well, there you go then. Welcome and hopefully we can hear more on your uncle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barb Rapp
2 hours ago, Barb Rapp said:

Yes

I was researching my uncle Wayne's name to honor him on D-Day and this post popped up. As my uncle was gone before I was born I did not know a lot about him. My dad and grandmother never talked about him. All I knew was that he was a paratrooper and died in France. Since doing research I have found out he had burns about the head and face and was shot in the leg and died from his injuries. His date of death is listed as June 22, 1944 but from what I have read this could have been the date they found him. In my heart I  believe this canteen could have been carried by him. As I don't have a lot of photos of him in uniform I have not came across any showing the canteen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...