12” USN Projectile

[Brian Keith]

A museum Im associated with received two of these the other day. The markings on the bottom of one are: 12 H.C. MK-17 MOD 2 LOT. 2-37 NO:5086 CSOOOFA. Doing a bit of research I think these were for the USN 12/50 Caliber gun, used on a number of ships, including a couple of pre-WW I battle ships and WW II Battle Cruisers. They are totally empty and dont have a nose fuze or wind screen, but they still weigh several hundred pounds! The rotating bands are gone, either never installed or removed for scrap or de-mil. On this example, there is a hand stamped X under the 2 of MOD 2. A couple of questions, is the 2-37 after the LOT a date code of manufacture-February, 1937? The other shell has 1-37. I wonder if the X means it didnt pass an inspection and was condemned? Thus, the rotating band may have never been installed. Can anybody tell me where these were made and by whom? Thanks for any information. Photos to follow.

BKW

 

They are about 50 inches tall!

[Brian Keith]

 

 

Thanks for looking!

BKW

[Bodes]

I don't know a lot about naval rounds, but seems to me this type of projectile was void of a wind cone...Those were for AP rounds which would have had an even more blunt tip....Yours looks like it would have had a fuze screwed unto the tip....Bodes

[917601]

Nice round, to bad about the driving band. From what I know about Naval shells ( they have their own " rules" and nomenclature). 12, HC ...12" shell, HC is High Capacity ( Navy Ordnance talk - High Explosive). The coloring appears to be wrong, repaint? Black means AP, yellow is High explosive, white stripe is equipped with tracer. I have an original painted 3"/50 with same coloring but is an actual AP ( solid bolt of metal) and letterrd as such. The inside of your shell is hollow for the explosive, not a solid bolt of hardened steel. It also is missing the fuze on the nose which is consistent with an HC shell. AP rounds have base fuzes. See this older Navy TM which explains coloring.

[917601]

Also, you are correct on the dates. The driving band was originally installed on it, it was chiseled off for the copper due to copper shortages. The 12" was obsolete. PM me, I know where a few correct dummy fuzes can be found

[917601]

I stand corrected on a few facts, see this Navy site under ammunition, it lists the Mk17 HC projectile. The " X" would explain the missing driving band, a reject so the copper was stripped off. I still think it is not painted correctly for an " HC". The green would not be OD either, the navy used a different green, close to " Hunter green". It mentions the loaded Mk17 HC shell weighs 940 lbs.....is that close?

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_12-50_mk8.php

[Brian Keith]

Thanks so much for the great info! I did find that site when I did a bit of internet search. I totally agree the paint is a bit of a fantasy paint job, one side is stenciled "MUSEUM". I found paint colors in a Blue Jacket Manual, so no surprise. We have no way to weigh it, but I suspect it is over 500 pounds. I'm happy we were able to unload it with out the loss of life or limb! I had not discovered what "HC" meant. PM inbound for the fuze info!

Thanks again everyone!

BKW

[917601]

Your existing paint job would be correct for an AP traced round. See pic of my original 1942 dated AP traced 3"/50, second from rt, next to the 105H. But since yours is an HE ( HC, high capacity in Navy terms), the body would be hunter green replacing the black. White stripe would be 3/4" wide I believe ( indicating trace, red dot indicates red trace), yellow as is. Nice rarer vintage shell. A facsimile driving band would not be to hard to install.

[917601]

Just for interest, here is a 16" /50 AP with trace and red dye, dated WW2. The use of colored dye was interesting. In a battle group, each ship had a different colored dye assigned for each ship. That dye aided in visual shell correction, and if more than one ship was firing, the gunner could pick out his assigned ships color so as to not confuse his shot with another ships gunfire.

[Brian Keith]

Great photo! When you say red dye, do you mean the color of the tracer burn? I don't see how the dye could be seen unless it was visible during the explosion. I suppose if it was being visually spotted by aircraft it could be possible.

BKW

[Bodes]

Your existing paint job would be correct for an AP traced round. See pic of my original 1942 dated AP traced 3"/50, second from rt, next to the 105H. But since yours is an HE ( HC, high capacity in Navy terms), the body would be hunter green replacing the black. White stripe would be 3/4" wide I believe ( indicating trace, red dot indicates red trace), yellow as is. Nice rarer vintage shell. A facsimile driving band would not be to hard to install.

There are a couple rounds in the photo that have the wind cones crimped onto the projectiles.....These were merely for making the projectiles aerodynamic as they traveled to their targets.....Bodes

[917601]

"Splash Colors - In group actions, when more than one ship is firing on the same target, it is difficult to determine which shell splashes are from which ship. This is important to know in order for each ship to be able to accurately adjust its fire onto the target. The solution was "Splash Colors," first used by the USN during Force Battle Practice in 1930 and in use by most navies during World War II. The void space between the armor piercing cap and the windshield for AP projectiles was filled with a colored dye by the shell manufacturer. The dye is seen when the shell impacts in the sea and colors the resulting splash - hence the name. By using different colors, each ship could distinguish between their shells and those fired by other warships. In the USN, the dye was a dry powder which was packaged in paper bags. Interestingly, the USN used this dye to compensate for minor weight variations that crept in during the projectile manufacturing process. For example, the 16 inch (40.64 cm) Mark 8 AP had a nominal 1.5 lbs. (0.68 kg) dye bag, but this was allowed to be as large as 3.0 lbs. (1.36 kg) in order to bring underweight projectiles up to the standard weight of 2,700 lbs. (1,225 kg). Usually, a particular color was assigned to each ship. For example, the colors used by the USS Iowa (BB-61) class battleships were as follows:

 

USS Iowa - Orange

USS New Jersey - Blue

USS Missouri - Red

USS Wisconsin - Green"

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

[Brian Keith]

Very interesting, never heard of it before!

Thanks for the explanation!

BKW

[Redleg13a]

There is an Ordnance Museum at Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis and one of the guys who runs it is retired Navy O-6 I believe. They have LOTS of naval ordnance on display and they know a lot about it. You might try contacting them to see if they might be able to provide more information on your shell. I know they have some 12" shells on display but I don't remember what kind or for which gun.

[Brian Keith]

Thanks for the info Redleg13a,

BKW