3/506th PIR Helmet

[USMC-RECON0321]

I bet that 75 or more years ago, when these guys were young, the very last thing they were thinking of was what would become of their helmets. They likely weren't too concerned with what happened to the rest of their equipment, either. So if some vet tells us that a rear seam, swivel bail repro was his actual helmet, I know we'll just thank him for his service and wish there were a million more exactly like him.

Bill

 

Yes I agree 100%. Most never paid any attention to the details of their gear and to them a steel pot is a steel pot etc. I wasn't mentioning any of this as a dig on the vets, but to make some aware, that what may come from a Vet, a Vet estate or his family and believed to be his service day stuff may not actually be so. Not intentional but it happens.

 

Troy

[Brian Dentino]

 

Yes I agree 100%. Most never paid any attention to the details of their gear and to them a steel pot is a steel pot etc. I wasn't mentioning any of this as a dig on the vets, but to make some aware, that what may come from a Vet, a Vet estate or his family and believed to be his service day stuff may not actually be so. Not intentional but it happens.

 

Troy

And I would say that these brave men, in their later ages, deserve to believe what they want about their everyday gear they wore. Most never cared for the details, as long as it kept them safe and got them home! We as collectors now, with the years of study and history on our side notice the subtle differences of the color of the straps, the heat stamp #, the hardware, etc.....these guys back then could give 2 sh!ts about these things, all they wanted to do was to make it back home in one piece and continue on with their lives. To most of them, it was a pause in their lives that they needed to get through to come back to their world and carry on with their lives. While as a collector I appreciate all of the nuances we put on these sorts of things now, it amazes me that these men went over, did their job, and came home and lived a somewhat normal life. I appreciate your posts Brian, and from a fellow Hoosier, thank you for your service!

[USMC-RECON0321]

And I would say that these brave men, in their later ages, deserve to believe what they want about their everyday gear they wore. Most never cared for the details, as long as it kept them safe and got them home! We as collectors now, with the years of study and history on our side notice the subtle differences of the color of the straps, the heat stamp #, the hardware, etc.....these guys back then could give 2 sh!ts about these things, all they wanted to do was to make it back home in one piece and continue on with their lives. To most of them, it was a pause in their lives that they needed to get through to come back to their world and carry on with their lives. While as a collector I appreciate all of the nuances we put on these sorts of things now, it amazes me that these men went over, did their job, and came home and lived a somewhat normal life. I appreciate your posts Brian, and from a fellow Hoosier, thank you for your service!

 

Not sure if this some how is going off track or not?? But again this isn't or wasn't meant to be about the Vets or their service. I brought this up because the original post of what appears to be "possibly" an aged helmet, but advising it's chain of custody came direct from the Vet himself in the 80's and then the mention of it possibly being a tribute helmet for the Vet??

 

So this was just explaining to "Collectors" that just because an item came direct from a Vet or their family, doesn't necessarily always mean it's original. So that is where the details become important (TO US COLLECTORS) to validate an item, not to question a Vet or his family. Like I said earlier, they may not even know one way or the other and that is fine and expected, especially in their later years or after the Vet has passed.

 

I even used my first hand experiences of this with my Grandfather over the years. He was given 101st patches, Repo Jump jackets, Wings, Tribute helmets, 506 DUI's and so on and because I pay attention to that stuff, I made sure to keep track of what was his original war time stuff vs stuff he was given over the years. But there are many in my family that wouldn't know the difference if they were left with his stuff and wanted to get rid of it.

 

That's all this was about,,,, The Collector and the items they are collecting and information about how Vets or Vets families may have items that came to them in later years, repo-tribute items, replacement medals etc.... Nothing intended to minimize a Veterans service or what they knew about their gear or what their gear meant to them at the time.

 

Thanks again

Troy

[Brian Keith]

The film clip I mentioned is here:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=3rd+battalion+506+PIR+Berchtesgaden&&view=detail&mid=99896C5099FA31BEF88899896C5099FA31BEF888&&FORM=VDRVRV , it shows a weapons squad walking through the street, several 3/506th painted helmets are obvious. The tic mark on the example I showed is bigger then those shown in that clip. On page 173 of "Painted Steel" a 3/506th helmet is shown with a larger tic mark. In that book, Armold shows five different 506th helmets. In Howards. "Americas Finest", on page 93 he shows a 327th GIB helmet with a larger tic mark. So, what do we know? We know the 3rd Battalion of the 506th PIR did wear helmets with painted tactical markings of a club with a tic mark at the 9 o'clock position from Normandy to Berchtesgaden. We know soldiers retaining their combat worn helmets after discharge is extremely uncommon. I suspect probably over 95% of US helmets painted with paratrooper markings were don post 1945. Is this helmet one of the few original painted WW II helmets? Don't know. I do know it doesn't and will not affect me financially in any way. It belongs to the original collector and it isn't for sale. More discussion with the collector may clear up some questions. One other bit of information I will share that isn't apparent on the shell, it came from an officer.

BKW

[Bill47]

 

Not sure if this some how is going off track or not?? But again this isn't or wasn't meant to be about the Vets or their service. I brought this up because the original post of what appears to be "possibly" an aged helmet, but advising it's chain of custody came direct from the Vet himself in the 80's and then the mention of it possibly being a tribute helmet for the Vet??

 

So this was just explaining to "Collectors" that just because an item came direct from a Vet or their family, doesn't necessarily always mean it's original. So that is where the details become important (TO US COLLECTORS) to validate an item, not to question a Vet or his family. Like I said earlier, they may not even know one way or the other and that is fine and expected, especially in their later years or after the Vet has passed.

 

I even used my first hand experiences of this with my Grandfather over the years. He was given 101st patches, Repo Jump jackets, Wings, Tribute helmets, 506 DUI's and so on and because I pay attention to that stuff, I made sure to keep track of what was his original war time stuff vs stuff he was given over the years. But there are many in my family that wouldn't know the difference if they were left with his stuff and wanted to get rid of it.

 

That's all this was about,,,, The Collector and the items they are collecting and information about how Vets or Vets families may have items that came to them in later years, repo-tribute items, replacement medals etc.... Nothing intended to minimize a Veterans service or what they knew about their gear or what their gear meant to them at the time.

 

Thanks again

Troy

Yes, Im afraid youre right, Troy. I helped pull this off the subject a bit. The original post had to do with the possibility of this 506th helmet being an authentic one from WWII. Sorry for the diversion. Whether or not it was worn by a 506th vet, I appreciate the sacrifices they made and though this one is questionable, I hope it brought joy to the man who owned it.

Best,

Bill

[stealthytyler]

No worries Troy, I think it is clear that you and I are stating that it is entirely possible that vets in their elderly age can become confused that their tribute helmet is not the helmet they actually wore during the war (not stating the 506th helmet falls in this category). I experienced this first hand. As collectors, we should be aware of this potential situation. No digs at all to the vets! I think we all appreciate the service men and women, past, present and future or we would not be in this hobby in the first place

[Blacksmith]

And, I would add that it is not just US stuff in veterans possession that can be spurious. I knew a WWII veteran, that was given a repro SA dagger by an admirer that came to his house. Definitely a nice gesture, but an example how one might make an assumption later on, when they see it in his stuff. There are also veterans that continued to collect military items, and have a mix of real / repro. So, that is why when somebody cites vet-direct or from well-known collector, I dont pay much attention.

 

And yes, in the end, what matters is their service, sacrifice, and incredible deeds.

[USMC-RECON0321]

And, I would add that it is not just US stuff in veterans possession that can be spurious. I knew a WWII veteran, that was given a repro SA dagger by an admirer that came to his house. Definitely a nice gesture, but an example how one might make an assumption later on, when they see it in his stuff. There are also veterans that continued to collect military items, and have a mix of real / repro. So, that is why when somebody cites vet-direct or from well-known collector, I dont pay much attention.

 

And yes, in the end, what matters is their service, sacrifice, and incredible deeds.

 

 

Good point. Many of us here are collectors and Veterans ourselves, so I try to not collect anything from my era of service and I keep my collection separate from most of my service stuff. (I display a few things) I also make sure my wife and kids know which is which. I also served in both the Marines and the Army, so I have it all boxed up separate also. My future Great Grand-kids will have a ton of stuff to sell, I kept everything! And yes I even kept both my helmets, my Marine helmet from Desert Storm and my Army Helmet from Iraqi Freedom. This is how I did it; When checking out of the Marines, I just went out in town to a local surplus shop and bought the same size helmet to turn in and in the Army I just told them I would pay for my helmet, call it a combat loss or what ever, but I was keeping it! The supply guy said, "Just keep it, we're getting new ones anyway". I really did try to pay for it though.

 

Troy

[stealthytyler]

Thats great that you kept all your gear, Troy. Would love to see both helmets. Would you consider posting in a new thread?

[USMC-RECON0321]

Thats great that you kept all your gear, Troy. Would love to see both helmets. Would you consider posting in a new thread?

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted them before in detail. But here is a current display pic. I can PM you other pics if you want, just didn't want to hijack this thread. Remember I was in Iraq all of 2004 and left in early 2005, so the new helmets we were just seeing showing up right before we left.

 

[ccmax]

No way those markings are 75 years old.

[tim novak]

If you visit the site, "Ramsbury at War" and go under the tab "101st" you will see the M1 used by Gil Morton in Normandy. He brought it back and donated

it to his host family.

I would also imagine that in Ian Gardner's books about the 3/506 that there should be a host of photos detailing the wartime markings

[Bugme]

If you visit the site, "Ramsbury at War" and go under the tab "101st" you will see the M1 used by Gil Morton in Normandy. He brought it back and donated

it to his host family.

I would also imagine that in Ian Gardner's books about the 3/506 that there should be a host of photos detailing the wartime markings

Agreed, and surprisingly, this arguement has come up every few months since the beginning of the USMF yet, there are still those who state that vets they've spoken to don't remember painting tactical markings on helmets. However, like a lot of vets, the trauma of combat also erases many things. I don't think anyone who study's helmets for any amount of time would deny that these markings exist since there is a plethora of wartime photos showing us that they were used. This is also not a defence to the helmet at the beginning of this thread.

 

I kinda get a kick out of collectors here. One says: we need more than a veteran recollection, we need photographic proof!

 

Then another collector says: the vets I spoke to said they never marked their helmets nor did they see them marked. And that is straight from his mouth. So, I doubt this happened.

 

Then another collector says: that is not how they were done they were actually bigger, smaller, longer, left side, right side etc. etc. And when photographic proof shows up, they still argue... well, it must be post war.?

 

Let me remind everyone about the "Alice" helmet, it's a classic.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/81526-who-won-the-alice-m1-helmet/?fromsearch=1

[tim novak]

I have to add, anyone looking into anything regarding the 101st should check in with Mark Bando's work. Its kinda like the expresson, "without saying..."

His books and website are unequalled. Although as he has stated that his attention is more Facebook than his website, under the "Equipment" section, there is a really nice discussion on the stencils of the 101st.

[Blacksmith]

Hi Scott - not sure if you are referring to my comment here, but I will clarify, just in case.

 

I specifically said that I was not implying these markings were not used. My point was that they were not as prolific as we might suspect, based on the number on the market today.

 

Clearly period photos show them in use.

 

If you were characterizing elsewhere, all good.

 

Then another collector says: the vets I spoke to said they never marked their helmets nor did they see them marked. And that is straight from his mouth. So, I doubt this happened.

 

 

[Navybean]

Agreed, and surprisingly, this arguement has come up every few months since the beginning of the USMF yet, there are still those who state that vets they've spoken to don't remember painting tactical markings on helmets. However, like a lot of vets, the trauma of combat also erases many things. I don't think anyone who study's helmets for any amount of time would deny that these markings exist since there is a plethora of wartime photos showing us that they were used. This is also not a defence to the helmet at the beginning of this thread.

 

I kinda get a kick out of collectors here. One says: we need more than a veteran recollection, we need photographic proof!

 

Then another collector says: the vets I spoke to said they never marked their helmets nor did they see them marked. And that is straight from his mouth. So, I doubt this happened.

 

Then another collector says: that is not how they were done they were actually bigger, smaller, longer, left side, right side etc. etc. And when photographic proof shows up, they still argue... well, it must be post war.?

 

Let me remind everyone about the "Alice" helmet, it's a classic.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/81526-who-won-the-alice-m1-helmet/?fromsearch=1

Man collecting painted M-1helmets has become very painful. Reading throught these two groups of M1 postings makes me question my sanity. ?

[Bugme]

Hi Scott - not sure if you are referring to my comment here, but I will clarify, just in case.

 

I specifically said that I was not implying these markings were not used. My point was that they were not as prolific as we might suspect, based on the number on the market today.

 

Clearly period photos show them in use.

 

If you were characterizing elsewhere, all good.

 

 

Lol, I was just speaking in generalizations as I mused what was said by Tim Novak. Honestly I had to go back to find your post to see what you had said. So, I do see why it may have seemed like that but, it wasn't. We're all good. ?

[Burning Hazard]

This thread is a great read, especially about the commemorative helmets made for Vets.

 

Mark Bando stated on his website many years ago that bring back 101st AB helmets are extremely rare. At the end of the war everyone was ordered to turn in their helmets for recycling/destruction; only a few officers were able to bring back their helmets since they could avoid orders to turn them in. Any other originals in existence are relics or were found in Europe where they were left during the war (See Helmets of the ETO book).

 

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment2.html

 

Pat

[Blacksmith]

Interesting thought, regarding destruction / recycling.

 

So I wonder if many of the Airborne helmets (along with other M1s) just eventually got passed down to training units until they were phased out to surplus.

 

This thread is a great read, especially about the commemorative helmets made for Vets.

 

Mark Bando stated on his website many years ago that bring back 101st AB helmets are extremely rare. At the end of the war everyone was ordered to turn in their helmets for recycling/destruction; only a few officers were able to bring back their helmets since they could avoid orders to turn them in. Any other originals in existence are relics or were found in Europe where they were left during the war (See Helmets of the ETO book).

 

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment2.html

 

Pat

[Burning Hazard]

Interesting thought, regarding destruction / recycling.

 

So I wonder if many of the Airborne helmets (along with other M1s) just eventually got passed down to training units until they were phased out to surplus.

 

 

I guess the QM Depot would asses turned in helmets to determine whether they were salvageable or not; guessing the ones with large dents or bullet holes would be scrapped. Lots of helmets would get repainted and re-used post-war, eventually surplused.

 

Here's a shot from an original 1945 dated reel of helmet recycling:

[Burning Hazard]

From youtube combat reel footage, here's an idea of what a 506th helmet would look like at the end of the war (if helmet not replaced), note the larger original 506th spade painted over with a smaller one:

 

 

[stealthytyler]

Just goes to show that there was not a specific size that was used on every single helmet. The one below is much larger!

[USMC-RECON0321]

Just goes to show that there was not a specific size that was used on every single helmet. The one below is much larger!

 

My understanding is the 101st painted the markings on their helmets twice, 1st for the Normandy jump and then again for Market Garden. The 2nd time they were painted smaller in size. So helmets used in both jumps will most likely have a shadow of a larger marking behind.

 

Troy

[stealthytyler]

 

My understanding is the 101st painted the markings on their helmets twice, 1st for the Normandy jump and then again for Market Garden. The 2nd time they were painted smaller in size. So helmets used in both jumps will most likely have a shadow of a larger marking behind.

 

Troy

 

Intersting and good info. I know little about airborne helmets. Thanks for the insight.

[nirvana]

I knew an old man who served as a medic in WW2 from Africa to the Hurtgen, leaving only when an air burst artillery round chopped him up pretty badly. He lost his helmet, all his gear, everything, as it was ruined and blood soaked.

 

He was on the edge of dementia in his later years, but just prior to that point I had a medic helmet put together for him, I ordered it. I didnt specify anything aside from the crosses. What showed up was scary good. Original shell, chinstraps, original paint with cork, but added red crosses. The painter, an individual who Im sure would be known here even aged the helmet some, without my knowledge or intent. It was sold as a repro, no intent otherwise. I had a set of dog tags made up to replace those that were lost, and painted his serial number into the shell and liner. He appreciated it, a lot, and initially thought that perhaps I located his original.

 

I have no idea what happened to the helmet when he died, but I would bet $1,000.00 that his family found it and presumed it was his original. Somewhere right now that helmet is floating as an authentic vet piece, maybe with his silver star and Purple Heart. But its not. And this is how fakes get into circulation, and why vet acquired or old collection stories mean exactly jack shinola. Buy the helmet. Not the story.