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Help on some Nice Early WW1-WW2 Navy & Marine Rates

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I am working on a large collection of over 100 different USN-Marine, and Even a UnUsual US Coast & GeoSurvey from the 20s, and looking to share some information, as well as gaining some further knowledge. I have already had one Great Navy Vet & Rate Collector from the Forum offer some assistance, which has been greatly appreciated...

 

1) An Odd Black Crow CPO QM, Blue Wool Base, Embr. Crow & QM, Applied Red Wool Chevrons. Age/Era? What does Black Crow notate?

 

W2CPOQMBlueBlackEmbrWoolox.jpgW2CPOQMBlueBlackEmbrWoolrx.jpg

 

 

2) WW1 Era ?? CPO Apprentice?, Blue Wool Base, Right Facing Embr. Crow & Knot, Applied Course Red Wool Chevrons. Age/Era & Rate Confirmation??

 

W1CPOApprBlueEmbrWoolox.jpgW1CPOApprBlueEmbrWoolrx.jpg

 

 

3) WW2 Era USMC CPO?? Aviation Elect. Mate, Av. Green Base, Bullion Crow Etc., Red Wool Applied Chevrons. Am I Correct of Age & Marine ??

 

W2USMCCPOAvElectMGreenBullWoolox.jpgW2USMCCPOAvElectMGreenBullWoolrx.jpg

 

 

4) 1948 Underwater Mechanic PO 1st Class, Blue Wool Base, Embr. Crow & Diver, Applied Red Wool Chevrons. Minty & Looks Great, but what is the Relative Rarity, compared to something like the U.S. GeoSurv. Wireless Operator from a separate post??

 

OC1CLUnderwMechEmbrWoolox.jpgOC1CLUnderwMechEmbrWoolrx.jpg


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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5) WW2 Era CPO Diamond W (Chaplain's Assist.??), Khaki Base, Embr. Crow Etc., Fully EMBROIDERED Chevrons, with a Stamped 1943 Date on Reverse. Am I Correct of Age, as I understood the Embroidered Navy Chevrons came after 1948?? (Althought the Army was certainly using similar during war...) I'd also assume this is not a common Rate as well... or was the W used more widely, like some of the Letters?

 

W2CPODiaWKhaEmbrEmbrPrint1943ox.jpgW2CPODiaWKhaEmbrEmbrPrint1943rx.jpg


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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Thank you for sharing. I would be happy to help answer your questions. I have been collecting rates for a few years and have amassed a rather extensive collection myself.

 

If you want to collect US Navy rates, you must get a copy of John Stacey's book, United States Navy Rating Badges and Marks 1833 to 2008, published by ASMIC. I made a number of poor purchases before reading this book.

 

1. Never seen such a configuration. It may be a civilian patch for middie jumpers. These patches look like USN rates (almost always CPO) but in non-standard colors.

 

2. Apprentice Petty Officer rate, used in boot camp. According to John Stacey's book, this example is from within a period of 1933 to 1948.

 

3. Most likely for the USN Aviation Green Working Uniform. These were unauthorized, and specifically banned in 1949. I have a uniform in my collection with such a rating, and it is a USN rather than USMC uniform.

 

4. This is considered on of the more rare USN rates. The rating was only active for a few months 1948, and it is questioned whether the rating badge was ever authorized. I have one just like this one in my collection. Beware that this is one of a small number of rating babes that is reproduced, though yours looks good to me, from the photo. As far as rarely vs USGS rates? I assume the later are more rare, but the USN rates are more collectible, so they probably come up for sale more often.

 

5. There was a test run of embroidered rates in 1943. While they are less common, they are not rare. Specialist is the not the mots, but definitely not the least common of the WWII ear Specialist Rates. I have a complete set of Blue 1c Specialist rates from WWII, and the P and Y were the hardest to find in good condition at a reasonable price. There are USCG and unauthorized Specialist rates that are even more difficult to find.


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My Specialist rates. Note D (Dog Handler) and CW (Chemical Weapons) are USCG, while the K is post WWII. Still trying to find a blue Specialist Y.

post-132988-0-47166500-1543756523_thumb.jpg


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David, Appreciate the detailed response, and while I'm a fairly quick study, primarily a medal guy still, but always find something interesting in the learning curve. I'll continue to dig through this lot to see if there is something of interest for you. Best Regards, RW


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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I have found rates for the Aviation Working Green uniform, with scare chevrons to be the hardest to find. Most likely since of the five uniforms worn by USN personal in WWII (Blue, White, Khaki, Gray, and Green), Green was only worn by members of aviation units, and then was an optional uniform.

post-132988-0-16111100-1543758113_thumb.jpg


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David, Appreciate the detailed response, and while I'm a fairly quick study, primarily a medal guy still, but always find something interesting in the learning curve. I'll continue to dig through this lot to see if there is something of interest for you. Best Regards, RW

No problem at all. You posted some niece pieces. Your green Aviation Electrician's Mate is a great example; much nicer they my green aviation rates. I look forward to seeing more.

 

Apologies to everyone for all of the typos in my posts. Too much autocorrect; I shouldn't post before my morning coffee.


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The first Chief QM photo, I believe is a novelty piece for wear with the 'middie blouses' of the early 1900s. The eagle for navy blue rating badges has been either worked of embroidered white thread or silver bullion. The rating specialty mark for the navy blue rating badge has also been either white thread or silver bullion, The noted exception was the Pharmacists Mate red cross..

 

Somewhere in the mid 20th century, the apprentice petty officer mark changed from the figure of eight knot to the square knot.

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The first Chief QM photo, I believe is a novelty piece for wear with the 'middie blouses' of the early 1900s. The eagle for navy blue rating badges has been either worked of embroidered white thread or silver bullion. The rating specialty mark for the navy blue rating badge has also been either white thread or silver bullion, The noted exception was the Pharmacists Mate red cross..

 

Somewhere in the mid 20th century, the apprentice petty officer mark changed from the figure of eight knot to the square knot.

. Might have been when they changed from right arm crow to left arm crow. We were still using these when I was in boot camp, but really dont remember.

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The patch in the lower right is what I understand to be an Appretice Petty Officer from around WWI.

 

One thing I first noticed in the Early Apprentice (#2) is that it is noticeably smaller than a typical WW2 Era. Crow Wingtip to Wingtip (as well as Chevron Width) is only 2-1/8" approx.

 

Does that help date it?

 

On the #1 QM Rate, has anyone seen the Black Crow on anything similar?

 

Thanks, RW


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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One thing I first noticed in the Early Apprentice (#2) is that it is noticeably smaller than a typical WW2 Era. Crow Wingtip to Wingtip (as well as Chevron Width) is only 2-1/8" approx.

 

Does that help date it?

 

On the #1 QM Rate, has anyone seen the Black Crow on anything similar?

 

Thanks, RW

. All of the Recruit Petty Officer badges ( Apprentice badges), Ive ever seen are smaller than regular crows. They were worn by recruit petty officers ( temporary appointment in boot camp and some schools), so it helped differentiate between them and regular Petty Officers

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One thing I first noticed in the Early Apprentice (#2) is that it is noticeably smaller than a typical WW2 Era. Crow Wingtip to Wingtip (as well as Chevron Width) is only 2-1/8" approx.

 

Does that help date it?

All Apprentice Petty Officer rates are the small size so the wearer is not confused for an actual Petty Officer. As indicated by Sigeye, they were work in boot camp and schools, so the wearer didn't have any real command authority

 

As I noted above, John Stacey indicates in his book this is a style used from 1933 to 1948. As far as I know he is one of, if not the most respected author in the field of rate collecting. It may be possible to maybe narrow down the range based on the style of the eagle, or the sticking of the chevrons, but I'm not familiar with the patterns. Before WAVES rates were introduced in late 1942 (IIRC), only Apprentice rates were this small size, so there are not a lot of examples out there, and since they all had the same specialty mark, you can't use that as a guide the way we can with other rates that had short lived specialty marks (such as the early Master at Arms, or Quartermaster Aviation).


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Thanks for posting some really nice pieces(rates). I think the guys have provided some really good information for you as John Stacey is definitely the man when it comes to rate collecting. His book is invaluable for the rate collector. Looking forward to any additional rates you may have Rich.


Always looking for USN WW2 era Bullion Chief Petty Officer Rates, any Chief Petty Officer Airship Rigger Rates, Liberty Cuffs, WW2 USMC Insignia and Distinguishing Marks, and WW2 Civil Defense and Civil Air Patrol Insignia


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Here are a couple of more nice WW2 Naval Aviation... These will all be offered for sale, but not sure on format yet. There is good interest, and want to be fair to both sides. I do appreciate the help and interest.



6) WW2 Era USN CPO Aviation Metalsmith, Av. Green Base, Bullion Crow Etc., Wool Applied Chevrons. Nice UnCut Rate. When did they start this style of Bullion, Backing, and Chevron?



W2CPOAvMetalsmithGreenBullWoolox.jpgW2CPOAvMetalsmithGreenBullWoolrx.jpg




7) WW2 Era USN 1st CL Aviation Enlisted Pilot, White Twill Base, Embr. Crow Etc., Applied Twill Chevrons. When did they start using the Small Reverse Anchor , Dates, Etc., and understand a Manufacturer Mark?



W21CLEnlPilotWhiteEmbrTwlox.jpgW21CLEnlPilotWhiteEmbrTwlrx.jpg


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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8) WW2 Era or ?? USN 1st CL Aviation MM, Blue Wool Base, Bullion Crow Etc., Applied Gold Tape Chevrons. Was this Pre-War, Wartime, or Post??

 

1CLAMMBlueBullGoldTapeox.jpg1CLAMMBlueBullGoldTaperx.jpg

 

 

9) Similar Era to the 1948 Underwater Mech. ?? Same Construction, USN 1st CL Lithographer, Blue Wool Base, Embr. Crow Etc., Applied Applied Red Wool Chevrons. My understanding is that this Rate wasn't in play until 1948? My question is When were the Applied Wool Chevrons phased out??

 

OC1CLLithoBlueEmbrWoolox.jpgOC1CLLithoBlueEmbrWoolrx.jpg

 

 

10) WW2 Midshipman ?? Earlier, Wartime, Later? Or do the Stars Denote the later Master Chief hierarchy? I have matching 1st & 2nd Classes without stars.

 

AnnapMCPOox.jpgAnnapMCPOrx.jpg


Rich Witt

www.WittWorldWide.com

 

We are currently working on Updating and Improving the Web Site, so please be patient, and I appreciate all the visits... In the short term this may effect our USMF Images as well. RW

 

Collecting and Dealing in Quality Original Militaria, Specializing in Named/Attributed/ID'd Medals and Groups, with an emphasis on research.

"Putting the Face to the Name". We Appreciate the Service and Sacrifice, and Preserve the History...

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Applied chevrons were not so much Phased out, as just ran out of stock. My dad had a set of blues made in Hong Kong in 1965. They put applied chevron crow and hash marks on the jumper. In 1984, I needed 3 stripe red hashmarks. All I could find in the exchange were a set of applied stripes, so bought them and wore them until my next change. No issues.

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