Band Of Brothers & Beyond Band Of Brothers: Capt. SOBEL

[usmce4]

Band Of Brothers is one of the books in my "reading room" and I was thumbing thru it this morning when a funny thought came to mind.

Ambrose gives some of Easy company's success to Sobel's harsh training, but Winters has very little good to say about him, but aside from that.....

 

They both mention Sobel had a very rough life after losing Easy Co. He became very bitter, his marriage failed, he attempted suicide at one point, his estranged children didn't even attend his funeral. Supposedly, he blamed all his problems on losing command of Easy.

 

What struck me today probably never entered his (or Winters or Ambrose's) mind is the fact that had he NOT lost command he'd have died at Normandy. Lt Meehan (who took over command of Easy Co) and most to the company staff died in a plane that was shot down before they jumped. Had Sobel still been company commander he'd have been in that plane instead of Meehan!!!!

 

Fate is funny..... had it not been for what he considered the worst thing in his life, he wouldn't have had ANY life (after D-Day). He was living on gifted time and probably never even realized it.

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

Art

[crashdive]

Art,

I have read both books more than once and watch the mini series about once a year and that never occurred to me. Really great insight on your part. If I had to guess I dont think it occurred to Sobel either. Losing Easy probably saved his life.

Cheers,

Andy

[kammo-man]

I pulled this book down and re read it in bed a few weeks ago and throughly enjoyed it.

 

Winters did indeed credit the old Easy commander for instilling a hardness into the troops who in turn were promoted up and became leaders themselves.

The early stateside training even though severe and punishments petty at the time instilled a core into the unit that helped when times got tough at the front.

 

We have all worked for a boss who's is rotten......as well as a great boss.

The job gets done.....just sometimes with a smile not a frown.

 

Great book.

Everyone want to learn about leading should read.

 

owen

[Teamski]

That is interesting indeed. I never thought of the fact that the firing saved his life.

 

-Ski

[Adg105200]

Both great reads, and both are in my bookcase/collection. I've thought about it before, but not quite to that level. Great insight and I definitely agree. I wonder if Sobel ever thought about it that way, or if Easy was more important? Guess we'll never know.

 

Andrew

[camopara]

Here's a kinda cool piece of Sobel memorabilia. A jump school 'wing' document from after Easy, and while he assisted in running the jump school.

[Gregory]

I know both books mentioned. In my opinion Sobel has never matched for the armed forces of democratic system. He would be ideal for the Prussia or commies but not necessarily for Allied forces where thinking was more important than primitive obedience.

[patches]

I haven't read the books only seen the series, so I wondered, was Sobel really that bad of a screw up in the field like in the movie?

[JasonT]

I've never read the Capt Sobel book but was aware of his post war troubles in life. I also never realized he would have most likely died had he not been replaced as leader of Easy Company. It's a very interesting question as to whether he realized it or not. I am sure he did, but I think the loss of Easy probably overwhelmed and buried any feelings he had of how lucky he was in the end. I think at some point he became Easy in his mind (maybe a narcissist) and when they took the company away from him, he lost his identity and obviously never recovered. Either way, it is a very sad story. His tough training methods probably saved lives down the road.

[Thor996]

His tough training methods probably saved lives down the road.

 

Winter's confirms this in his book and its confirmed also in Band of Brothers.

[bobgee]

Interesting perspective on Captain Sobel's possible fate. He clearly was felt to be an S.O.B. as a leader. Much of his style was felt to be petty and mean-spirited by the troops. BUT, did that result in a positive result for Easy Co. when they entered combat? Very possibly. The men who later became leaders, both officers and NCOs, were likely 'better because of Sobel. My 2-cents. Bobgee

[usmce4]

The original point I was making was simply about Sobel surviving because he was not in that plane on D-Day, nothing more.

 

But since the discussion has strayed to his training methods and their influence on Easy company I'll add my opinion to that as well.

I agree 100% his (call it sadistic if you will) training most definitely is what shaped Easy Co into what it became, an excellent fighting company.

 

Anybody who has gone thru Marine Corps boot camp in the early 60's or before can definitely see the similarity. The first 3/4 of boot camp recruits are worthless maggots, suffering all of the "Sobel type" abuse and then some, plus physical abuse. After the rifle range it changes, the abuse fades and you suddenly become a Marine recruit rather than a maggot.

 

Easy Co. had a parallel experience. Sobel was the beginning, treating the men like dirt, Winters the finishing touch, treating the men with compassion and respect. (Good Cop, Bad Cop?)

Sobel instilled the ability, Winters gave them the will. I know this will get me a lot of flack, but please, take it as kiddingly - The result was Easy company fought like Marines - PLEASE, no hate mail, I just had to throw that in. I have the utmost respect for the WWII Army Airborne - no way you could get ME to jump out of a plane as they did.

 

Art

[Allan H.]

One of the things that everyone must remember is that Ambrose's book was written by Ambrose based mainly on the recollections of former enlisted soldiers some forty years after the war. I would say that memories faded and some things became more stark in the memories of the veterans. Sure, Sobel was tough, but you have to wonder just how much hyperbole was injected by the veterans in their recollections. You are also talking about a different time in American history when most of the soldiers were rather uneducated and many had little physical prowess due to malnourishment during the depression. Remember, the veterans all talked about how there was no way that Sobel could do 30 push ups yet somehow he managed. In today's army, soldiers are almost always high school grads or at least have a GED. Thirty pushups won't even get you to half of the minimum standard on the current PT test.

 

Soldiers don't tend to remember their drill instructors with fondness (they are all tough and sadistic SOBs, right?), but they all remember how those Drill Sergeants made them tougher. I believe Sobel to have earned his reputation as a tough commander, but I also believe that many of his foibles come as the result of 40 years of memories by soldiers who didn't like him in the first place. I believe that had Sobel commanded E/506 at Normandy, and had he lost his life like Lt Meehan, he would have been remembered with respect and reverence.

 

My two cents,

Allan

[BagmanL6]

Fellow members. I’ve thought long and hard about posting on this thread and other threads about Capt Stobel. My intent is not to start an argument. I respect everyone’s opinion and want to express mine.

 

Captain Stobel was an American who served his country honorably during time of war. None of us knew the man or served with him. Our opinions are based on books, movies, etc. which are an author’s/director’s interpretation based on interviews of those who did know and serve with Captain Stobel. At best our views are third hand. Every good story needs a protagonist and antagonist. Capt Stobel has certainly been labeled the antagonist in this story. We talk about and discuss the Greatest Generation but somehow exclude Captain Stobel from this. He has become the poster child for what some consider poor leadership. Again, I offer that none of us knew or served with the man. Captain Stobel led his soldiers as part of a chain of command. For those who want to cast Captain Stobel as the antagonist you’d be best served to look a little farther up the chain of command in an attempt to understand why he was allowed to command for the length of time he was. In other words no one leads in a vacuum.

 

Finally, Captain Stobel like many combat veterans more than likely suffered from PTSD. It’s an interesting thought that his relief from command saved his life. His relief from command also may have contributed to a life long issue of survivor’s guilt. None of us will ever know. Perhaps its time to let the man rest in peace. He served his country to the best of his ability. A Nation can ask for nothing more and should expect nothing less.

[usmce4]

All excellent comments in my opinion.

However, I haven't found any mention of Sobel being in combat, so PTSD isn't likely, and survivor's guilt usually accompanies a close encounter rather than something as distant as another person being on a plane you would have been on.

Possibly one of the things eating at him is he, like us, understands he was to a large part responsible for Easy Company's success but all he got for it was sacked.

 

Art

[Gregory]

Agree.

 

Sobel had nothing to do with such factors as CSR and PTSD.