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A couple of "What Is This" questions.


bayonetman
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While continuing to clean out the storage area to raise money to pay my medical bills, I found a couple of items that I simply cannot identify from the limited references that I have on web and field gear. Hopefully some of the members who are far more familiar with these items can help me identify these so that I can put them on eBay with an accurate description. They don't fit in my collection, and I don't know what they are or what they might be worth or I would offer them to forum members prior to eBay.

 

Item 1 - a World War one bag of heavy web, about 11" by 12" closed. The bag is heavily reinforced by a second layer of web material and has a single glove fastener to hold the flap shut. One end of the sling is sewn to the bag, the other has a hook that snaps on a heavy sewn on ring. Marked US on the outside, R.H.LONG over 5-18 inside the front.

 

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The second pouch is WW2, looks like two pouches sewn together, well done. About 12" by 14" closed. The inside has a flap sewn to one side to separate some items I believe. Marked US on the outside of both sections, and LAIRD SCHOBER over 1944 on the inside of both flaps. Sling is marked TWEEDIE 1945. I was told that the original bags may have been some sort of ammunition carrier for bazooka rockets or the like, but I personally have no idea.

 

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You aren't going to like this but both items are Surplus Store Specials. The first one is made out of a WWI horse's feed bag, a pretty useless item so surplus dealers converted them into some thing that could be used and thus sold. The second item is two Grenade Bags put together to make one large bag. Contrary to what you see on e-Bay it is not a "Rigger" modification it is a surplus dealer modification. Neither have any collector value but you should get something for them just as a novelty or a bag to use.

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As I said, I didn't know what they are, and now I do. I should have guessed something like that, as they did not appear at all in my limited library. Thanks for giving the facts so I don't make a fool of myself.

 

I guess I should post them on eBay as "unknowns" and see if there is anyone out there who wants them. But they would make a handy carrying bag I guess so I suppose I will just keep them against any future need.

 

Thanks again.

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I do not believe the double ammo bag(s) is a Surplus Store invention. A WWII 82nd vet described such a bag to me -- used in Holland for sure (he had one) and maybe Normandy -- long before I found one. I have owned two; while similarly constructed they varied a bit in detail. One had a unit stencil on it, like "C-6". In both cases the bags were marked with the same maker and date. The vet said they used for whatever needed carrying, as they were a bit bigger than a musette bag (for personal gear) and took a walkie-talkie or TYPEWRITER (Yes, he said Bn-level clerks jumped typewriters) plus personal gear just fine. He did not think they were intended for anything "special", i.e. one particular type of radio. I would support them being rigger-made, but not widely (outside the 82nd).

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El Bibliotecario

When I was a kid and surplus stores were filled with unissued WW2 junk I remember the "rigger"--a hunchbacked old gaffer with an industrial sewing machine--routinely turning out bags identical to the two ammunition bags sewn together.

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General Apathy

Hi bayonetman & other posters, I had to laugh when I saw this post, only an hour before whilst eating dinner with a few friends we were discussing how the hobby had changed in the last thirty years. We were lamenting the arrival of reproduction items and how that had changed things.

 

I related to the assembled group that whilst in a surplus store in Belgium two years ago I saw reproduction copies of ' surplus store specials ' as QED4 described them in the post above. These were items that the surplus store could find no civilian commercial use for. The item that I stood laughing at was the deep canvas bag that was used in aircraft and armored vehicles to catch the expended shells or links. The 1950's dealers shortened the bag sewed up the open end, turned the bag horizontal so that the long side zip became the top and added two canvas handles, Hey Presto a tool bag. The secret of these was that the printed description and stock number disappeared off the cut and sewn end of the bag.

 

They were never a genuine issue bag, just a surplus store conversion, and now reproduction copies were being made. ?????? think.gif

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

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You aren't going to like this but both items are Surplus Store Specials. The first one is made out of a WWI horse's feed bag, a pretty useless item so surplus dealers converted them into some thing that could be used and thus sold. The second item is two Grenade Bags put together to make one large bag. Contrary to what you see on e-Bay it is not a "Rigger" modification it is a surplus dealer modification. Neither have any collector value but you should get something for them just as a novelty or a bag to use.

 

I agree with the above. I have seen both of the items described. Another popular "Surplus Store Special" was to take cloth .50 cal belts and put buckles on them to make them more sellable. I used to see bins full of web straps that were obviously removed from haversacks or other field gear because the dealers felt they could make more money off the straps than the items they were removed from. Lots of nice military surplus was ruined to make it more "civilian friendly".

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dogfacedsoldier

When I was in college one of the managers I worked for carried a double bag like the one pictured above. The difference was that it had light od and od 7 halves. There was one "U.S." on it and one date, 1944. I examined it pretty closely, but he would not sell it to me. I still have no idea wwhat it was, but he was positive about the fact that his father brought it home. I liked the bag, and this is the first one I've seen in 20 years. I saw that bag every day for 2 years.

 

Jon

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The "double" bag looks to me to be two, M-1 Ammunition bags sewn together. I would imagine bags of the same manufacturer would be hard to locate, not to mention ones with the exact amount of wear. I get the feeling that a surplus store special would have dissimilar manufacturer stamps and dissimilar coloring and wear as well. Any thoughts on my logic?

 

Wayne

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Well guys, I agree these items have no collector value however you can start a new collection made just of recovered wartime web. I like specially modifications of US WWI items made by british dealers or housewives. Up to now I have a fed bag and this musette made from a 1919 haversack.

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General Apathy
The "double" bag looks to me to be two, M-1 Ammunition bags sewn together. I would imagine bags of the same manufacturer would be hard to locate, not to mention ones with the exact amount of wear. I get the feeling that a surplus store special would have dissimilar manufacturer stamps and dissimilar coloring and wear as well. Any thoughts on my logic?

 

Wayne

 

Hi Wayne, most of this stuff was done back in the 1950's when the surplus market was flooded with quantity. It was not unusual to see two or maybe even three surplus dealers in some towns as there was so much stuff available.

 

There were strung together quantities of items, never even used by the military it virtually went from manufacturer to surplus. I remember as late as 1976 finding one surplus dealer that I got on with, who let me go through his stock inventory in the store rooms. There were bundled packs of brand new unused ' spare ammunition bags ', all in that nice light tan colour that everyone looks for now.

 

Back in the 1950's customers wanted bags that they could pack and carry things in, they were not bothered about makers and colors it was the purpose they wanted it for which was the criteria, lot's of the stuff the dealers had was too small and so they joined two small together, brand new they would be identical condition and manufacturer.

 

I think you are possibly thinking along the lines of what you see now in surplus stores, one of this, one of that, worn or been standing for years as it has damage to it.

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

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I can't post any positive proof that these bags were rigger made by QM during the war. I do have several made out of M-2 Ammo bags. Most of them were cut in two with straps added for shoulder strap. Some being made from machine gun belts. But one came from a grouping out of a foot locker. Maybe someone can locate a living vet that says YES we made them during the war or a picture of one in use. This discussion reminds me of the one about bayonet lugs on M-1 carbines making ETO. Still looking for that Holy Grail of a picture. Robert

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craig_pickrall
Hi Wayne, most of this stuff was done back in the 1950's when the surplus market was flooded with quantity. It was not unusual to see two or maybe even three surplus dealers in some towns as there was so much stuff available.

 

There were strung together quantities of items, never even used by the military it virtually went from manufacturer to surplus. I remember as late as 1976 finding one surplus dealer that I got on with, who let me go through his stock inventory in the store rooms. There were bundled packs of brand new unused ' spare ammunition bags ', all in that nice light tan colour that everyone looks for now.

 

Back in the 1950's customers wanted bags that they could pack and carry things in, they were not bothered about makers and colors it was the purpose they wanted it for which was the criteria, lot's of the stuff the dealers had was too small and so they joined two small together, brand new they would be identical condition and manufacturer.

 

I think you are possibly thinking along the lines of what you see now in surplus stores, one of this, one of that, worn or been standing for years as it has damage to it.

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

 

Those were the good old days for sure. Nothing like being the first to break a bail or open a crate. I remember when I was a kid about 6 living in a town of about 25,000 people there were 3 large surplus stores with 2 in the same block. I will never forget one store had wooden crates with Japenese marking that contained 4 mines and 4 grenades that were all LIVE. They were sold as gopher control kits and I think the price was $5. That really wasn't as cheap as it sounds since these were late 1940 dollars.

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I will never forget one store had wooden crates with Japenese marking that contained 4 mines and 4 grenades that were all LIVE. They were sold as gopher control kits and I think the price was $5. That really wasn't as cheap as it sounds since these were late 1940 dollars....

 

"Gopher control kits?" I am laughing so hard I fell out of my chair! I suppose blowing a small crater in your yard is one way to deal with the little pests. Too bad they couldn't tell the difference betwen a gopher and your dog or cat!

 

I would hate to see what they recommend for racoons!

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