U.S. Army WW1 Victory Medal Clasp Query ?

[dpast32]

Hi Guys, Here's another question for all our WW1 Victory Medal experts. And yes, I've checked in both my Victory Medal texts, Laslo, & Jim Michaels for the answer to this question, but no good. My question is; "Was the 'Defensive Sector' clasp automatically awarded along with a Campaign clasp, or was it noted specifically on a man's Discharge Document ? The document I refer to notes; >>> A.E.F. from 09-04-1918 to 07-03-1919. Then, noted is; "Meuse-Argonne Offensive, 10-26 to 11-11-1918". <<< That's all that appears under the 'Battles & Engagements', etc. So, based upon the above, I suspect that he would have only the M/S clasp on his Victory ? I did check with Jim Michaels directly, & he too asked if anything was noted about a Defensive Sector clasp. ( BTW, I don't think Jim M. is doing very much with Victory Medals any longer. ) If anyone's ever come across a Victory with just the M/A clasp, & or has firm data on this, I'd really appreciate hearing from them. THANKS !!

 

Best, dpast32 Hi Guys, Here's another question for all our WW1 Victory Medal experts. And yes, I've checked in both my Victory Medal texts, Laslo, & Jim Michaels for the answer to this question, but no good. My question is; "Was the 'Defensive Sector' clasp automatically awarded along with a Campaign clasp, or was it noted specifically on a man's Discharge Document ? The document I refer to notes; >>> A.E.F. from 09-04-1918 to 07-03-1919. Then, noted is; "Meuse-Argonne Offensive, 10-26 to 11-11-1918". <<< That's all that appears under the 'Battles & Engagements', etc. So, based upon the above, I suspect that he would have only the M/S clasp on his Victory ? I did check with Jim Michaels directly, & he too asked if anything was noted about a Defensive Sector clasp. I anyone's ever come across a Victory with just the M/A clasp, & or has firm data on this, I'd really appreciate hearing from them. THANKS !!

 

Best, dpast32

[dpast32]

OK, I 'think' I may have just answered my own question. Apparently, I guess I hadn't read, & or understood what Laslo states on Pages 97 - 98 of his Victory Medal book. Laslo states that after a few changes / updates to the W.D. G.O.'s pertaining to the Defensive Sector clasp, it appears that if a Soldier had participated any 1of the 13 'major operations', he was also approved for a D/S clasp, even if the D/S 'credit' wasn't noted on his Discharge Document. Well, that does appear to answer my question, at least as far as I can determine, right ? Please, if someone has any information to the contrary, please let me know. THANK YOU

 

dpast32

[dpast32]

Ohhh, I forgot to mention this particular fact. Per his Discharge Document, it's clearly noted, via an ink stamp, >>> "Awarded July 14, 1920. Approved by 1st Lieut. xxxxxxxxx 26th Inf., AEF, for Victory Medal with '1 clasps' <<< OK, I guess I still do have an issue !! WHY isn't it noted that he received 2 clasps ? Also, NOTE that it dates clasp(s) not clasp, as in just 1 ? HELP, PLEASE !! I could truly use some input on this one Guys. THANKS

 

dpast32

[Johnnymac]

 

From my book, pages 20, 21 and 22.

 

 

June 7, 1919, France, A.E.F., General Headquarters, General Pershing - Pershing sent a cablegram to the War Department requesting that eligibility for the thirteen major battle clasps be defined. After the posting and reading of the returned cablegram from the War Department to his commanders, the internal pressure became great for listing other battles. Officers and commanders had pleaded their cases of how they each had fought, while occupying various sectors in many different engagements, during this horrific war.

 

General Pershing understood the arguments of each of his unit commanders, and he wrote to the War Department on their behalf:

It is our duty to recognize those individuals and organizations, many of whom suffered heavy casualties and who, under the circumstances, merit a special recognition, [but] would be deprived of the right to wear a battle clasp if they were only awarded to personnel engaged in one of the limited thirteen (13) named major operations.

 

Secretary of War, Newton D. Baker replied, "The following premise that I have adopted is that the entire War was in reality a continuous battle. The effect of this premise is that all soldiers occupying a sector, whether active or quiet are entitled as a participant in battle under Par. 244." With this, Pershing's request was granted, and the Defensive Sector clasp was added as the fourteenth (14) battle clasp.

 

This Defensive Sector clasp would represent all the night patrols in no-man's land, facing the daily artillery and machine gun fire, and the extremely active enemy snipers. It was also for the Balloonists and the Signal Corps Air Service who were under fire from both air and ground, as well as the men who dodged enemy fire to truck supplies and ammo to the front or to get food to the troops in the trenches. Hollywood has often made it look so easy, but there was no cease fire, as is sometimes seen in the movies, as men dashed out from covered positions to help a fallen comrade. For all these unknown and forgotten heroes, the Defensive Sector Battle clasp made an emphatic statement to the world that these soldiers and the lost souls fought an important battle as well. (It is important to understand the significance of the Defensive Sector battle clasp. General Pershing, and the War Department's Secretary of War Baker, very intentionally attached the word "Battle" to the Defensive Sector clasp.)

 

 

June 12, 1919, Washington, DC, War Department, General March - Pershing directed that War Department, G.O. No. 48 be amended again to also include, "All the major and minor battle operations to be represented by the Defensive Sector as the number fourteen (14) Battle clasp, as proposed by General Pershing." In a more liberal, yet definitive policy, Secretary of War, Newton D. Baker made it impossible to not be eligible to receive the Defensive Sector battle clasp by writing the following:

"Officers and enlisted men serving at any defensive sectors, irrespective of them serving in the U.S. 1st, 2nd, 3rd Army, areas of corps, divisions or smaller independent units or organizations under French, British, Belgian or Italian commands, between April 6, 1917 and November 11, 1919 [are] entitled to this Battle clasp, irrespective of awards for major operations."

As requested all the amendments to WD, G.O. 48 were consolidated into WD, G.O. No. 83. The War Department further added that all personnel in any engagement with the enemy forces in European Russia or Siberia would also be entitled to the Defensive Sector battle clasp.

 

June 30, 1919, Secretary of War Newton D. Baker, through General March, issued General Orders, No. 83 - A war service medal, to be known as the Victory Medal, was to be awarded to all officers and enlisted men who served honorably on active duty in the United States Army any time between April 6, 1917 and November 11, 1918. General Order No. 83 states:

1-Battle clasps were to be awarded for each of the major operations and for the occupation of a defensive sector. Only one defensive sector clasp was to be awarded to any individual.

To be eligible for a battle clasp, the officer or enlisted man had to have been actually present, under competent orders, in the sector of the Army, Corps, Division, or similar independent organization during the period in which the organization was engaged. The officer or enlisted man may have belonged to the organization in question, been attached to it, or have served it in some independent capacity.

2-The authorized presence of the person in a locality at the time of the operation was to be a determining factor in the awarding of the clasp:

Each officer and enlisted man serving in the 1st Army area between August 30, 1918

and November 11, 1918 or in the 2nd Army area between October 12, 1918 and November 11,

 

1918 was entitled to the Defensive Sector clasp, irrespective of awards for major operations.

Each officer and enlisted man serving in the area of corps, divisions, or smaller

independent organizations under French, British, Belgian or Italian commands, between April 6, 1917 and November 11, 1918 was entitled to the Defensive Sector clasp, irrespective of awards for major operations.

Each officer and enlisted man present in an enemy engagement in European Russia since August 1, 1918, or in Siberia since August 15, 1918, was entitled to either a Defensive Sector battle clasp or a service clasp, but not both.

 

 

From my book, page 41

 

Single Battle Clasp Medals

 

When discussing the awarding of battle clasps, the reasonable question is often posed: why are there medals with only a single battle clasp attached, if by regulation, any medal with a named battle clasp should also include a Defensive Sector clasp. An explanation for the existence of such a medal can be found in the Army Navy Register, August 7, 1920, Vol. LXVIII, No. 2099 which states: (Army Navy Register is a publication of the Army Navy Publishing Company, Washington, D.C.)

Each office in charge of an Army recruiting district is being mailed a supply of victory medals equipped with one battle clasp, Meuse-Argonne, (…). The medals are being furnished in response to numerous requests from recruiting officers who desire them for exhibition and other publicity purposes. The officers in charge of these districts have been reminded that care must be taken to guard against loss of the medals (…). (Emphasis added.)

Despite the Government's warning against loss of the medals, surely years after their publicity use came to an end, some of these medals with stamped name on boxes may have been sold off or given away and effectively slipped into the public's hands, never having been officially awarded to any individual. Outside of being considered a recruiter's medal, the only way to verify that such a single a battle clasp medal was officially issued and awarded would be to find such a medal intact with a stamped identification numbers on its receipt, including the box with matching stamped identification numbers, both showing only the name of that one clasp stamped on each.

 

 

 

 

[dpast32]

THANK YOU VERY very much for your most informative reply. After all the varying things I've read on the subject, I just wasn't sure if this G.I. was entitled to the D/S clasp or not ? I guess I hadn't read your book as thoroughly as I should have ! I was initially inclined to believe he was authorized both clasps, but as I looked deeper into it, I became less sure. The 2 primary reasons for my confusion were, 1) that his Discharge only noted the M/A 'credit', & 2) that the 'official' list of campaign credits listed only Meuse-Argonne, nothing else. That's why I was leaning towards a single clad p Victory Medal. Based upon all of our evidence I must agree that perhaps he was authorized the 2, but those 2 facts I've noted above just keep nagging at me. I'm sure though that many reasons can be found for why the 2 above 'facts' were listed as they were. The campaign credits list perhaps wasn't updated to show the new rule regarding the Defensive Sector clasps, & whomever was filling out this guy's paperwork may have not been aware of it also ? I guess it could have been a multitude of reasons. THANKS AGAIN Jim, I really appreciate your kind assistance.

 

Best, Dom Pastore Jr.

[kanemono]

Here is a Victory medal awarded for service in Russia with a 'Defensive Sector' bar. Please also see the authorization for the 'Defensive Sector' bar.

 

 

[dpast32]

From everything I've seen so far, it appears as if 'my' guy probably should have received the Defensive Sector clasp. However, there's those 2 nagging facts that keep me wondering. 1st is that his Discharge Document states he received '1 clasps ' ( Yup, it's listed in the plural, which just adds to the uncertainty !! ) & 2nd is that his unit ( Co. L, 807th Pioneer Infantry Regiment ) is authorized just the Meuse-Argonne clasp, & nothing else. If I had to bet on the issue, I'd lean towards the 2 clasp medal. I guess anyway you look at it I should be happy, as there were only a very few P.I.R. units that served anywhere near the Front. And, to have actually qualified for a 'battle' clasp was quite rare indeed. THANKS Guys I really do appreciate all the help on this one !

 

Best, dpast32

[Johnnymac]

Here is a Victory medal awarded for service in Russia with a 'Defensive Sector' bar. Please also see the authorization for the 'Defensive Sector' bar.

 

 

If,your service was in an area that was marked as a combat sector you were given the choose of: a service clasp in a named country, France, Italy, Russia or Siberia, or, a Defensive Sector clasp for your service in a combat sector. When each person from all branches of the military applied for their Victory medal they did so with their military service record (similar to dd214 of today). From that record they were told what they were entitled to. If there was disagreement it was forwarded to a higher command. The fact that your medal has a Defensive Sector tell me your soldier like most would want a “battle clasp” over a service in country clasp. To me your paper work matches your Victory medal.

[Johnnymac]

From everything I've seen so far, it appears as if 'my' guy probably should have received the Defensive Sector clasp. However, there's those 2 nagging facts that keep me wondering. 1st is that his Discharge Document states he received '1 clasps ' ( Yup, it's listed in the plural, which just adds to the uncertainty !! ) & 2nd is that his unit ( Co. L, 807th Pioneer Infantry Regiment ) is authorized just the Meuse-Argonne clasp, & nothing else. If I had to bet on the issue, I'd lean towards the 2 clasp medal. I guess anyway you look at it I should be happy, as there were only a very few P.I.R. units that served anywhere near the Front. And, to have actually qualified for a 'battle' clasp was quite rare indeed. THANKS Guys I really do appreciate all the help on this one !

 

Best, dpast32

 

From my book

 

June 12, 1919, Washington, DC, War Department, General March - Pershing directed that War Department, G.O. No. 48 be amended again to also include, "All the major and minor battle operations to be represented by the Defensive Sector as the number fourteen (14) Battle clasp, as proposed by General Pershing." In a more liberal, yet definitive policy, Secretary of War, Newton D. Baker made it "impossible" to not be eligible to receive the Defensive Sector battle clasp by writing the following:

 

If you read this, it is a "given". for the Defensive Sector, it was not a given for any of the other 12 Battle clasps, so each clasps had to be spelled out as to what each soldier was entitled to.

[dpast32]

THANKS AGAIN Jim, I'm pretty confident that he was authorized, & subsequently awarded a 2 clasp Victory. The only issue that just keeps annoying me is the statement of; '1 Cisco's awarded. Why would the Officer compiling his paperwork have listed '1' when the Medal was being issued with 2 clasps ? And, why 'clasps', not clasp ? I guess it may have been due to the compiler's inattention, overwork, or perhaps due to the Officer filling out the form, not being present when the Medal was actually mailed out to the G.I. ? Any, and or all of these reasons may have been responsible for the 'mis-written' statement. As you have discerned by now, I really hate to have too many loose ends in my research !

 

Best, Dom / [email protected]

[Johnnymac]

The officer made a mistake or the Defensive sector clasp was not available until after his paper work had already been filled. Also remember this, correctness may not always had been the order of the day for a Pioneer Infantry Regiment in that time and era..

[dpast32]

Yes, that's pretty much the conclusion I arrived at. As we all know from research & collecting, these mistakes occur from time to time, & especially so in military records. In my years of collecting, I've encountered numerous mis-prints, mis-dates, & the like. I guess it all depends on the accuracy & attentiveness of person filling out the particular document. On a side note, I've tried my best to locate ANY relevant data on the 807th PIoneer 's in WW1, but there doesn't appear to be anything out there ? I have found about 2 articles, & that was it !! ( Other than OOB related information, listing them amongst many other units, etc. ) Soooo, I guess I should count myself as lucky to even have obtained what I have. THANKS

 

Best, dpast32

[Johnnymac]

http://credo.library.umass.edu/view/full/mums312-b219-i282

 

 

http://usahec.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16635coll21/id/99

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/04/28/nyregion/herbert-young-who-fought-in-world-war-i-dies-at-112.html

 

Good Luck

[dpast32]

I just wish to THANK 'JohnnyMac', as well as everyone else who so kindly replied to this query. Your input was very much appreciated.

 

Best regards, Dom Pastore Jr.