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Fantasy, Repro, & Counterfeit EGA Reference Thread


cbuehler
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Last one. This is a composite picture that shows some of the mold lines (at red arrows).

 

I entertain any and all opinions.

 

post-1107-1217633493.jpg

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usmcaviator

SSgt,

Ebay item number: 350081112848. This one and all the others that this E-bay seller has listed (multiple times I might add) are poor quality reproduction/fantasy pieces. Some forum members have discussed these, I don't know where the post is. They can tell you why it is no good.

 

Mike

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teufelhunde.ret

Hi Bill, sadly your suspicions about the piece are correct. It is a fantasy piece, and rather crudely done as evidenced by the better photo's you have posted. Very simply, everything about this piece that could be wrong... is wrong, as you have shown in the composite photo. And with respect to any like with post WW1 emblems... very simply no. The cast items you've seen from the collections in the recent thread on the topic, do come with a "history" and when compared side-by-side have entirely different appearance, cut and patina. I believe the seller began listing these about a month ago. One of the EGA forum mod's had contacted the seller surreptitiously about the emblem and found out there was a dress mate that came with this one. And pic's were forth coming... but, were never sent. I suppose we concluded it would be best to wait... to see what this seller was up to as there was were no previous sales from the seller of these fakes. Now with two sales and a third up for sale, one can conclude there is likely a relationship of "maker & seller". At which time "brig" posted here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry172394 That being said, you are not the first nor last to acquire a fantasy or fake. We've all "been there, done that". And thank you for posting these pictures, its helps us all identify who is making and selling these pieces. Semper Fi, Darrell

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Hi Bill, sadly your suspicions about the piece are correct. It is a fantasy piece, and rather crudely done as evidenced by the better photo's you have posted. Very simply, everything about this piece that could be wrong... is wrong, as you have shown in the composite photo. And with respect to any like with post WW1 emblems... very simply no. The cast items you've seen from the collections in the recent thread on the topic, do come with a "history" and when compared side-by-side have entirely different appearance, cut and patina. I believe the seller began listing these about a month ago. One of the EGA forum mod's had contacted the seller surreptitiously about the emblem and found out there was a dress mate that came with this one. And pic's were forth coming... but, were never sent. I suppose we concluded it would be best to wait... to see what this seller was up to as there was were no previous sales from the seller of these fakes. Now with two sales and a third up for sale, one can conclude there is likely a relationship of "maker & seller". At which time "brig" posted here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry172394 That being said, you are not the first nor last to acquire a fantasy or fake. We've all "been there, done that". And thank you for posting these pictures, its helps us all identify who is making and selling these pieces. Semper Fi, Darrell

 

Thanks Darrell. The seller was "kind" enough to accept return for a full refund (less postage, of course) so I'm only out that much. I wish I'd remembered seeing that before accepting the second chance offer. It would have been one less "nut roll" to have to go through this week.

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teufelhunde.ret

All, frankly I am dubious of the claim made here. I for one do not share the same sediments of the seller as to the originality of this emblem. Aside from never seeing or hearing reference to this design in a 3” x3” dimensions, there is simply no historical mention in the context outside of the well-known shako helmet EGA. Aside from this, the “design shown simply fails to exhibit any similarities to known stamped pieces of the period – in fact, this piece is in fact devoid of any of the detailing known to exist on “die-stamps” EGA’s of the period. And the excessive flash about the perimeter contradicts the seller’s reference to being worked upon by a jeweler, as well as the crudely done screwpost arrangement with nut. How ironic... the screwpost most closely associated with emblems of the 20/30’s ends up on the back of this and how ironic a cut-down screw is used on the back of the eagle. Well in turning attention to the front we see a period design of lat/longs and molded continents as prescribed – but – were is the detail – and that is the issue throughout the stamped piece, very light and soft details. The metal descibed with this piece ought to have sharp and defined lat/longs! Anyone knows that in observing EGA’s the front details are sharp – strong and when the eblem is used, shoul depict highlight wear only unless its been polished and polished, but again, detail would remain untouched in the recessed areas of the anchor and eagle. The overall appearence of the front is "soft" and thoughout the pattern. Look at the reverse of this eagle – no details whatsoever in the individual feathers – the place it should show the strongest. Look closely how the “hawser” AKA – anchor rope – crosses the anchor in this stamped piece, one area was missed entirely and across the top barely stamped. And as for “its patina” I see some very strange discolorations in areas were it does not belong as well as in places were typical wear would never allow this to occur – even in instances were discontinued use would allow patina to develop. All in all, its my two cents this emblem falls into the category of “fantasy”

 

From the seller (turnlin's) listing:

 

Original, scarce variant pattern of the USMC officer’s M1892 dress helmet frontplate. While conforming in concept and size (3 ¼ in. [8 cm.] tall; 3 1/8 in. [7.8 cm. wide]) to regulation insignia, this version differs from the standard in several respects. Compared to the issue varieties, the sheet stock from which this piece was stamped is relatively light, and is copper rather than brass. As can be seen from the photos, the eagle’s configuration is distinctly different, while the designs of the globe and anchor vary slightly from the norm. Initially die-stamped, this frontplate was further defined with jeweler’s hand-chasing on the details of the eagle’s talons, andwing and breast feathers; the anchor’s hawser; the outlines of the continents; and the longitude and latitude lines. Highly-polished, the insignia was then gilded and silvered in the regulation locations for an officer’s frontplate, resulting in a truly handsome piece. Most of the plating is now gone, and high points have been polished down to the copper base metal. The affixing hardware on the frontplate’s reverse is unusual too, consisting of two beefy brass machine screws soldered in place and fitted with square-cut nuts. I have shown this example to several collectors and dealers, and while nobody can state with certainty its exact provenenance, nor cite a reference for its unusual configuration, none has ever seen anything like it, and most believe that it was crafted by a highly skilled Chinese jeweler, ca. 1905-1910. (I know there are some extraordinarily knowledgeable collectors of Marine EGAs out there, so if anybody has anything more difinitive, please share.)

 

Rest of the description here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=013

phoney_ega.jpg

phoney_ega1.jpg

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Darrell - I agree with your observations exactly. Don't know what it is - - - but it's not anything I've ever seen or heard of.. Meets no known USMC Regulation standard......as we used to say back in my TR days, "Late war? Theatre made? Might be real?" Not something I need in my collection. thumbdown.gif

Semper Fi....Bobgee

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Insignia "crafted by a skilled Chinese Jewler" (or any other "skilled" jeweler") wouldn't be stamped-out. It would have a solid back.

Kurt

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jeremiahcable

I've been looking for an image of it for a little bit, but this piece is clearly based on a WW1 to the '30s era sweetheart piece. It's usually seen in sterling with a vertical pin. Maybe Brig has one of the sweethearts he can post for comparison?

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teufelhunde.ret

Tim, I think Jeremiah is referring the similarities of this pin more often than not called a "sweetheart": (from Bobgee collection)

bobgee.jpg

bobgee1.jpg

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I think they're based off the same thing, the one you posted is just larger and better detailed. but it shows better comparrison

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usmcaviator

In my opinion, this emblem never existed and was "dreamed up" by a creative person. Having 6 original 1892 helmet EGAs (officer, enlisted and Band versions) in my collection and having sold about the same amount, it exhibits none of the characteristics of an old original 1892 spiked helmet plate. The seller does sell a fair amount of self described put-together items as well as a lot of parts items. He has a white spiked helmet with a repo officer's 1876 shield that he has been trying to sell for a while. This one is a no brainer.

Mike

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  • 2 months later...
usmcraidergirl

Interesting information. Came upon this post while searching for info on a spiked helmet I am looking to get. Seems recently a spike helmet sold on ebay by the same seller and for $750!!! He claims it was a legit helmet but fake/repro EGA. I assume this one is more of the same that you guys mentioned about fantasy helmets?

 

At least the seller says it is such a good repro it may take on a "life of its own" later as an original. Sounds kind of shady to me though.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230291472211

 

Original USMC M1892 enlisted fulldress spiked helmet, complete, totally regulation, and in near-mint condition. It is also all-original, with the exception of the frontplate. However, the latter—which started life as an excellent reproduction—has been improved by conversion to “open-beaked,” “Type II” (wire-fastened) configuration, with a real gilded surface. It is now indistinguishable from an original—and may take on the proverbial “life of its own” as a result, some time in the future.

 

The helmet body is of pressed felt, per Marine Uniform Regulations, and was manufactured in 1902. Three ink stampings on the sweatband’s reverse give plenty of manufacture and inspection information (see photo): “Wm. Horstmann Co. / Philadelphia / Contract of Feb. 10, 1902;” “Chas. F. Sackett / Inspector;” “QMD Phila / [illegible].” This shell is in near-new condition, with no cracks, dents, mothing, fading, soiling, or other damage. Its leather components—the “helmet band,” sweatband, visor and cape linings, and edge trimming are all in excellent shape. The sweatband shows very minor wear (like one or two times out), and still exhibits its original paper size tag—a “7”. The enameled leathers do exhibit the minor crazing typical of vintage finishes, but show no chipping or other deterioration.

 

Trimmings are similarly superb. The original sidebuttons are a fine unissued matched pair, screwed to the helmet body via the correct (and rare) brass “T-nuts” (see photo). Spike and spike base have never seen service, and--like the sidebuttons and chinchain-- exhibit 99% original fire gilding. The chain chinstrap has been recently, professional rebacked with fine leather.

 

These helmets were introduced for fulldress wear by Marines in 1892, and saw service on land and sea through the Spanish-American War, the Philippine Insurrection, and the Boxer Rebellion, until replaced in 1904 by the equally iconic “bell crowned” dress cap. Never common, these Leatherneck Spikes have gotten exceedingly difficult to find in recent years. The frontplates do, however, surface with some regularity (four in the last month on eBay), so the reproduction frontplate on this helmet could be replaced with little trouble, rendering this piece 100% original. Either way, this piece of USMC history would be a credit to any collection, and would be near-impossible to find a finer example.

 

Auction pics

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
teufelhunde.ret

BUYER BEWARE: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...T&viewitem=

 

1225_1.jpg

 

Yet another of these gems has made an appearance on ebay today in a Live Auction, these Gooney repro's are described and discussed above and elsewhere in this thread. Folks ought to look very closely at the rest of his "stuff". s/f Darrell

 

1225_2_lg.jpg

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teufelhunde.ret

Granted - I've never held one in my hand, but the seller's claim appears to me to be bogus - simply because of the screwback feature (and two different sizes at that!). Will post scan of Orgell's emblem from Moran book / appendix next. One other thing - notice the quality of these pictures compared to the other sales right now...? Frankly leads to even more skeptisum... One more thing - how do you suppose one is to use a screwback with a shoulder knot :blink:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=013

 

BTW - does anyone own one of these - does anyone have period pictures to share will us? s/f Darrell

35aa_1.jpg

36b0_1.jpg

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the anchor flukes and the length of the shaft near the top are very different. the scan is too bad to tell, but the auction bird details look minimal compared to the book depiction

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Orgell's emblem scan taken from Morans book / appendix thumbsup.gif

 

The one in the scan looks to be silver, while the one on ebay is not, even after I took it into Photoshop to try to remove some of the color cast:

 

shoulderscrew2.jpg

 

I went back and looked at an old thread from the second week the forum was online and it looks like the screwback with the serrated edge on the screws is a 1920's or 30's thing.

 

An interesting thing here: "China Marine EGAs usually differ due to the addition of two fasteners vs. single fasteners of others." That's from http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?p=137178

 

I wonder if someone took a pre-war shoulder board EGA and crossed it with a post-war back to make some new fantasy piece?

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Granted - I've never held one in my hand, but the seller's claim appears to me to be bogus - simply because of the screwback feature (and two different sizes at that!). Will post scan of Orgell's emblem from Moran book / appendix next. One other thing - notice the quality of these pictures compared to the other sales right now...? Frankly leads to even more skeptisum... think.gif One more thing - how do you suppose one is to use a screwback with a shoulder knot :blink:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=013

 

BTW - does anyone own one of these - does anyone have period pictures to share will us? s/f Darrell

 

I have one that looks (as best memory serves me at the moment) to be identical to the double screw-back one shown here. I'm on my lunch break at work at the moment and don't have access to it. I'll pull it out when I home and photo and post it.

 

I've always thought it to be a replica or fantasy item since I got it as a free-bee from a guy who sold me a pair of officer's M-1937 officer's EGAs some 10-12 years ago.

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As promised, here's my version of this EGA. As I mentioned, I got it as a throw-in when I bought some other items from a fellow over a decade ago and assumed it was a replica. It does appear to have separately applied continents and as you can see from the shot of the back, double screw-post mounts (one nut has temporarily gone MIA somewhere around here.

 

post-1107-1228951252.jpg

 

post-1107-1228951792.jpg

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As promised, here's my version of this EGA. As I mentioned, I got it as a throw-in when I bought some other items from a fellow over a decade ago and assumed it was a replica. It does appear to have separately applied continents and as you can see from the shot of the back, double screw-post mounts (one nut has temporarily gone MIA somewhere around here.

 

Strange_little_EGA_front.JPG

 

Strange_little_EGA_back.JPG

 

 

Perhaps there is something to that statement I quoted above from leatherneck.com "China Marine EGAs usually differ due to the addition of two fasteners vs. single fasteners of others."

 

Could it have been that one of the old shoudler knot EGA's was used to cast EGA's with two screws? Is there any history of China Marines having EGA's made in China?

 

As the image above notes, the old shoulder knot EGA's had the eagle attached by a silver piece. That would have been something like this 1890's shoulder knot piece:

 

egatag.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

I have been reading the EGA Discussion and wanted to get the SME's (Subject Matter Experts) Opinion on these disks.  Back ground I purchased them on eBay Yes on eBay recently of course guaranteed. So please let me know what you think Thank you in advance one way or the other. If the scans are not good enough I will post some photos tomorrow.

Regards,

John

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