Cammo ww1 helmet question

[Bugme]

I'm new to this board, but I have collected WW1 painted helmets for over 25 years. I agree with those who say that few if any US helmets were camo painted during the war (prior to Nov 11) and that few if any divisional helmets were painted prior to Nov 11. I think the divisional helmets were painted during the occupation and for parades coming home. There is a publication showing the various insignia for the Yankee Division regiments when they returned from France for a parade in Boston. I think the US camo helmets were strictly a souvenier item after it was decided that soldiers could keep their helmets (and gas masks which were also "arted up" sometimes). There were probably damaged helmets being scraped made available for painting too. I suspect that there were helmets painted and offered for sale at reunions after the war. Of course there are modern fakes, but I don't at all agree that most of the common division helmets found today are fakes. The real ones were so common why bother with faking 33rd or 37th or 89th or 35th. There were roughly 25,000 real ones each as of 1919 and other than just the joy that must come to a crook with a successful fraud why bother. Once you get into the high value ones like the USMC and other 2nd Div, etc then I agree you need to be careful. I may be kidding myself but I feel safer with the ones that are a little beat up. When you look at a lot of them over the years you get a feel for the colors used and the execution of the designs. Dave

Great comments Dave and I agree with every word, especially getting the feel for the colors and might I add: the age and line checking of these heavily lead laden paints is not hard to discern. By the way, welcome to the forum!

[BOLO]

there cant be too many original painted helmets, the USA was only in the war for about 9 months

[Bugme]

there cant be too many original painted helmets, the USA was only in the war for about 9 months

Yeah, not many, only a little over 4 million soldiers and many of them got helmets by the end of the war.

Here's the numbers:

 

U.S. Army Mobilized: 4,355,000

 

U.S. Army War Dead(overseas & domestic):

Killed in action: 36,931

Died of wounds: 13,673

Died of disease: 62,668 *

Other: 6,872

Total dead: 120,144

Total wounded: 198,059

Total casualties: 318,203

Prisoners of war and missing: 4,500

 

Helmet Production By U.S. Manufacturers During WWI

 

Edward G. Budd Manufacturing Co. 1,150,775

Sparks, Withington Co. 473,469

Crosby Co. 469,968

Bossett Corporation 116,735

Columbian Enameling & Stamping Co. 268,850

Worchester Pressed Steel Co 193,840

Benjamin Electric Co. 33,600

 

TOTAL: 2,707,237 helmets produced by the end of the war.

 

This does not include the 400,000 helmets provided to the U.S. by the British when the U.S. first entered the war.

[BOLO]

Helmet Production By U.S. Manufacturers During WWI

 

Edward G. Budd Manufacturing Co. 1,150,775

Sparks, Withington Co. 473,469

Crosby Co. 469,968

Bossett Corporation 116,735

Columbian Enameling & Stamping Co. 268,850

Worchester Pressed Steel Co 193,840

Benjamin Electric Co. 33,600

 

TOTAL:[/b] 2,707,237 helmets produced by the end of the war.

 

This does not include the 400,000 helmets provided to the U.S. by the British when the U.S. first entered the war.

 

but most of those helmets were not painted camoflage, they were standard green paint

[Bugme]

but most of those helmets were not painted camouflage, they were standard green paint

Absolutely! However, I think it's already been determined that few helmets were painted in the field but, were done after the end of hostilities. By an act of Congress, every soldier was allowed to keep as souvenirs, one uniform, one gas mask and one helmet. That puts a lot of helmets into the hands of a good many young soldiers to bring home with them. Many of them had them painted to represent the German style of camouflage.

[101combatvet]

We were actually speaking in terms of camo helmets and not helmets with just painted unit insignia.

[Bugme]

We were actually speaking in terms of camo helmets and not helmets with just painted unit insignia.

Your right, that is what started this thread but, I think it morphed along the way. so, to bring it back, here's a souvenir camo helmet from my collection.

[MAW]

I have been collecting WW1 since the mid-1980's, when I was old enough to start buying the stuff.

 

I collect groups and photos pretty heavily. I can't say that I've ever seen a single documented photo of a doughboy wearing a painted helmet in combat/prior to the occupation.

 

I have RPPC's showing guys wearing them at the end of the war.

 

 

If there were any worn in combat, I would suspect that they would be similar to the British battle flashes that Dennis alluded to for the Yankee Division. The 80th Div. regimental markings have the same principle. I'm not saying that they were worn in action....just that it would be more typical for battle flashes to be used rather than Divisional insignia.

 

 

Also.....I can document battle flash patches being worn by the 2d Division in combat. That is proof that the British model was being adopted by the AEF, but........"it is what it is".

[101combatvet]

The paint color looks very close to the paint on my 82nd Divison. Very nice one....

 

Your right, that is what started this thread but, I think it morphed along the way. so, to bring it back, here's a souvenir camo helmet from my collection.

[aef1917]

Absolutely! However, I think it's already been determined that few helmets were painted in the field but, were done after the end of hostilities. By an act of Congress, every soldier was allowed to keep as souvenirs, one uniform, one gas mask and one helmet. That puts a lot of helmets into the hands of a good many young soldiers to bring home with them. Many of them had them painted to represent the German style of camouflage.

 

Let's play with the numbers a little bit. For the sake of discussion, let's say that 1,000,000 US-manufactured helmets were issued (I have no idea what the real number was, this is hypothetical). Add to that the 400,000 Brodies, for a total of 1.4mm. If just 1% of those were painted camo between the Armistice and 1930, that's 14,000 helmets. I'd be willing to bet that significantly more than 1% couldn't resist the blank canvas their helmets represented.

 

The point is that in all likelihood, there are thousands of original camos out there.

 

Are there fakes? Sure. I'm just not willing to say that 'most' are.

[Bugme]

Let's play with the numbers a little bit. For the sake of discussion, let's say that 1,000,000 US-manufactured helmets were issued (I have no idea what the real number was, this is hypothetical). Add to that the 400,000 Brodies, for a total of 1.4mm. If just 1% of those were painted camo between the Armistice and 1930, that's 14,000 helmets. I'd be willing to bet that significantly more than 1% couldn't resist the blank canvas their helmets represented.

 

The point is that in all likelihood, there are thousands of original camos out there.

 

Are there fakes? Sure. I'm just not willing to say that 'most' are.

That means that there are probably a lot of them out there yet looking to be found! Example: There were only 500 prototype Model 8 helmets ever made after WWI. Yet, I know 3 people who own one, two of which are members of this forum. Now remember, that's only 500 possible helmets, many of which are lost forever in landfills or have been recycled. Yet, I know 3 collectors with these helmets! So, even if we're talking conservatively like aef1917 said, there are still an awful lot of possibilities out there for legitimately post war(up to 1930) done camo M1917's.

[101combatvet]

Notice how we've gone from camo to insignia and back to camo again..... Yes, there are tons of WW1 insignia painted helmets in attics across America.... but fewer real camos.

[rmoore456]

That means that there are probably a lot of them out there yet looking to be found! Example: There were only 500 prototype Model 8 helmets ever made after WWI. Yet, I know 3 people who own one, two of which are members of this forum. Now remember, that's only 500 possible helmets, many of which are lost forever in landfills or have been recycled. Yet, I know 3 collectors with these helmets! So, even if we're talking conservatively like aef1917 said, there are still an awful lot of possibilities out there for legitimately post war(up to 1930) done camo M1917's.

 

You can add a fourth that I know of in a local private museum.

 

Ray

[101combatvet]

5th one is at APG..... 495 to go.

 

You can add a fourth that I know of in a local private museum.

 

Ray

[Dave G]

I've always wondered about the colors chosen to paint camo schemes. Reference the helmet in post #32 and you notice about five different colors. I own helmets (including a German example) camouflaged in these exact same colors. Why were these particular colors so readily available: were they the standard colors used by the U.S. (or the French) to camouflage large equipment and vehicles? Or were they just what was at hand?

[101combatvet]

I have wondered the same..... maybe all that Sherwin-Williams produced at the time.

 

I've always wondered about the colors chosen to paint camo schemes. Reference the helmet in post #32 and you notice about five different colors. I own helmets (including a German example) camouflaged in these exact same colors. Why were these particular colors so readily available: were they the standard colors used by the U.S. (or the French) to camouflage large equipment and vehicles? Or were they just what was at hand?

[normaninvasion]

Man, I go from low to high on this thread I sure am getting an education.

[aef1917]

I've always wondered about the colors chosen to paint camo schemes. Reference the helmet in post #32 and you notice about five different colors. I own helmets (including a German example) camouflaged in these exact same colors. Why were these particular colors so readily available: were they the standard colors used by the U.S. (or the French) to camouflage large equipment and vehicles? Or were they just what was at hand?

 

The Germans, being German, had very specific rules on camouflage schemes. It's accepted among German helmet collectors that a lot of helmets were painted in Belgium and France after the war as souvenirs for doughboys. It seems logical that the same people that painted up German helmets would also have painted US helmets.

[just-a-good-ole-boy]

Here is my ww1 camo lid. I pulled this out of the vets attic myself along with his gas mask and bag, and also a M1916 German Camo helmet he brought home from the war. The helmet and gas mask are id'd to a Lt Frank C. David in the 7th Division. I am not saying this was worn in combat like this because I am sure it was not. However it is original to the period.

 

[just-a-good-ole-boy]

[MAW]

Here is my ww1 camo lid. I pulled this out of the vets attic myself along with his gas mask and bag, and also a M1916 German Camo helmet he brought home from the war. The helmet and gas mask are id'd to a Lt Frank C. David in the 7th Division. I am not saying this was worn in combat like this because I am sure it was not. However it is original to the period.

 

 

I used to own a helmet with the same design....undoubtedly painted by the same artist.

 

As someone else referenced...the anal-retentive German army had specific guidelines for the mixtures and appearance of the paint colors that they used on their camo helmets. Some US camos are obviously based on these colors, while others have more "artistic license".

 

And on the divisional painted helmet topic, I had the good fortune of interviewing a Lt. in one of the local national guard companies in WW1. I had seen two examples of painted 37th Div. helmets that had identical appearances. The vet told me that a particular member of his company painted all of their helmets, because his family's pre-war buisness was "sign painting". I'm sure similar things happened in other companies.

[jgawne]

ONe might suspect that, as paint was in short supply during the fighting (note the order on not painting cammo), that after 11 NOV front line troops may well have collected German paint supplies left behind. However, a lot of that I have read is that a lot of the paint jobs were done in the rear areas, like waiting for a return trip on a ship.

 

Which brings me up to another point. BEfore return home ona aship doughboys were supposed to go through "The Mill" where they turnedin just about everything they owned and got new FREE OF LICE items to keep lice from getting on board a ship, and possibly bring typhus home.

 

Now helmets are not all metal, they have the liner parts which could house lice. So in theory they were supposed to be turned in and exchanged, or go through a delousing procedure. Now from what I read on this the army felt it was too slow to collect a man's material - clean it- and get it back to him. They just exchanged his stuff for clean stuff.

 

But I do not recall ever seeing any mention of helmets in this procedure. If so, you could make a case that a large number of helmets were collected in the pre-embarkation screeening, and replaced by plain ones. Leaving a short window of time for a guy to paint his hemlet overseas. ( although I have seen painted helmets being carried by guys boarding a ship). So I wonder if anyone has seen anything on how helmets were handled in "The Mill."

 

And I do agree that the more common painted helmets are not as likely to be faked as the rare ones. But living in YD central, the number of YD painted helmets I have seen over the years is still a small percentage of the number of plain ones that crop up, and we know the YD painted them all for their parade in Boston. And it just seems like there are far more out there now than 20 years ago at the peak of WW1 material showing up.

[MAW]

I do not have any documentation specifically about helmets being turned in/reissued, but there are some similar stories that I have encountered for other things.

 

1) A WW1 vet that lived down the street from me was one of my favorite guys to talk to. He was in Supply Co., 145th Inf. He said that when they were getting ready to get on the boats to go home he saw a buddy of his sitting off by himself underneath a tree....so he walked over to see what he was doing. He had his gas mask and cannister out of the bag, and claimed he was "just cleaning it, because he wanted to keep it for a souvenier when he got home." The vet thought the story sounded suspicious....so he inquired further, and found out that his buddy had taken his canister apart and dumped out all of the cores, and was sneaking his .45 home. The vet that told me the story said he wanted to do the same thing, but didn't have time before they headed out.

 

2) There is documentation about turning in clothes to the delousing station, and how wrinkled they would be after they were steamed. You had no guarantee of getting the same suit back....you just got one that fit. (heck, anybody that collects the stuff knows 90% of 'em are size 36 jackets w/ 6 7/8" hats.)

 

There's no reason to think that they would be more concerned with helmets than they are with the clothes.

 

3) I set up a display in conjunction with a Iraq vet a couple of years ago....and that guy had a ton of stuff, including his Kevlar helmet w/goggles and body armor. I asked him if that was the helmet he wore over there, and he said it was. I asked him how he managed to get it home, and he said that when it came time to turn gear in, he grabbed someone elses helmet and turned it in. (Good man! ) The body armor was also interesting....he said they had none when he first got there, but he was able to scrounge and got this set at a hospital. It had been worn by a member of the 3rd ID when that guy was wounded, and it had his name written in it. An interesting piece of history on its own accord.

 

Soldiers aren't much different from WW1 to the present. You get issued whatever they give you and "manipulate" circumstances as best you can.

[Marchville1918]

Your right, that is what started this thread but, I think it morphed along the way. so, to bring it back, here's a souvenir camo helmet from my collection.

[Marchville1918]

I noticed your camo helmet and dug into my own collection. As it turns out, I have one in the same colors and design for the HQ Company of the 39th Inf Reg (4th Div) and I think that have seen at least one other similar 4th Division camo. So it appears there was some guy in the 39th Inf or some German sign painter who did a bunch of these. Dave