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M3 with M8A1 scabbard


ziomanno
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Hello to you all gentlemen; I just got an honest M3 Imperial guard marked, which comes with a M8A1 scabbard, but marked M8.

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Reading the interesting bayo points #18, I realize that, being marked under the tab "B 2/1 N" it should be of the first run, so without the belt hooks (marked 2/2, so quite close).

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But the web hanger has the WW2 features (.360 rivets, small brass fastener, retainer straps crossed right over left, etc.), except for the belt hooks, which are made of magnetic steel.

Now my question is: do you think I have a post war modified M8 or a transitional, early run M8A1?

And, if so, could it be consistent with that late production Imperial?

Thanks in advance.

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ziomanno- Scabbard is correct for WW2. Beckwith Co, did not throw away M8 stamped throats for M8A1, they just used them to make the longer belt loop, w/ M1910 belt hooks. I have many like it. I do see that someone straightened one of the bent wings at the throat. Some owner's preference to accommodate the straight guard portion of the M3. The M3 has good finish, assume it's guard marked, w/ 8 square cut grooves, and brown spacers. SKIP

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Hi Skip, thanks for your reply. Actually she's a guard marked one. I would rate its finish 80%, with a more greyish tone than green. Do you mean the belt hooks provided scabbard would be ok for a late production M3?

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M1910 belt hooks are correct, even on M8 scabbards. Keep in mind, when the M8 short loop scabbards were issued to replace the leather M6 scabbards, it was found that they could not fit on the cartridge belts. So, M1910 belt hooks were added. Initially to existing M8s with short loop, then to improved longer belt loop, and finally they morphed into the standard M8A1 scabbards. SKIP

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Although the early M8 scabbards (with the short hanger) did not originally have the belt hooks, it is not unusual to find them, like yours, with a belt hook sewn into the belt loop. This was done possibly on a unit level, or simply done by individual soldiers. (this according to Gary Cunningham in his book, U.S. Knife Bayonets & Scabbards. Your scabbard escaped the re-construction, that installed the longer web hanger, which happened in the mid 50s.

Marv

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Here is a quick comparison of three M8/M8A1 scabbards. The left one is an M8A1, the middle is an unaltered M8, and the right one is a M8 that has the hooks added (but the hanger has not been extended, so is the original hanger). All are BM CO throat marked, and VP marked bodies.

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Thanks to you all for your informative inputs. I measured the web hanger: it is 13,5 cm long, roughly 5.4 inches; definitely an M8A1 version.

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Ziomanno,

Thanks for the measurement. In the picture, it seemed to me that it was closer to 4.5 inches. You are correct. At 5.4 inches, your scabbard is a WWII produced M8A1.

 

 

As a footnote, in post #9, Thorin 6 has shown us a picture of an M8 scabbard that is unusual. The middle scabbard is an M8 that has the straps that snap in the opposite direction. HMM.

Marv

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I've run across all kinds of atypical sheaths with the M8/M8A1 family. Hard to say in the least what might be in service repair vs. after the piece was retired.

 

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Not uncommon to see M3s in a variety of scabbards.

 

I remember back in the late 80s to early 90s there was a dealer who had 3-4 ammo wood 105mm crates full of M3 knives.Many had the M8A1 scabbard with metal tip.When he first had these there were both blade and guard marked and various makers.

 

Story was the knives had been released through a DRMO sale and had came off a Marine base.They all had some refinish evidence.Some appeared to have only the scabbard replaced.

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Your scabbard escaped the re-construction, that installed the longer web hanger, which happened in the mid 50s.

Marv

 

This could point that this scabbard was modified before that. Why would they modify a scabbard that has already been modified?

 

These are mine examples, L to R unmodified M8, WW2 M8A1 and post-1955 M8A1 with metal tip:

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The hanger of the M8A1 is longer as shown here:

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I think the best tell tale sign to determine if a scabbard is in its original config. would be the B/N code under the throat. But there are gray areas. According with the Cunningham's bayo points (# 6 and 18), the M8A1 scabbards production, with belt hook but still marked M8, started at about 2/2 and ended at 3/1 - 3/2, when they started to be marked M8A1.

Well, you see the scabbard I posted above is marked 2/1... and this one, coming with a M4 Camillus, is marked M8 on the front plate...

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Personally, I don't get wrapped around the axle on M8,or M8A1 scabbards. About half of all those that I own are M8s w/ the M1910 belt hooks,others are early short loops, while the rest are late M8A1s w/ metal tips. Have actually had a mint Camillus M3, repacked in 1962 that came in wrapper with the late M8A1 metal tipped scabbard. M3s, and M4s came with what was available, supply depots would eventually catch up with the latest versions, but not always. CMP has been selling M7 bayonets, w/ early M8A1 scabbards sans metal tips. You never really know. Best thing you can do is keep in mind when the actual M3, dated, blade, or guard marked were in production, and the M4s were produced. But that will still be a whatever M8 type was available, at that time. Also keep in mind that a soldier would trade out for a new one with no mind to whatever. Codes or correctness where of no concern, practicality was the concern. SKIP

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SKIPH,

No question. From the M3 all the way to the M7 bayonet, they all used basically the same scabbard. So to find a blade that was made in 1943 in a scabbard made in 1957 (VPCo. for example) would not be "incorrect" necessarily, but if a collector has a guard marked M3 and wants to show it in a WWII period scabbard, the details of each scabbard matter.

 

As to ziommano's point about the 3/3 number, gray areas abound. If it weren't for Gary, we would all be wrapped around the axle. He has mentioned in the past that some of the B/N numbers could vary some, one direction or another. Government documents or company records do not always represent the real world experience. I have a few examples that do not fit the profile. The weirder the better.

Marv

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Im on board with Skip

 

Like helmet "heat lot numbers" I have never really paid attention or looked at the numbers on the scabbards and wondered what,why,how,if,or,should,shouldnt etc.Never really meant that much to me.

 

I appreciate the information but I dont obsess or agonize over it.

 

True if someone wants to show a guard marked or even blade marked in a WW2 era scabbard then pair it with either a short or long hanger M8.I have a M3 from a 30th Inf officer with the long hanger and M1910 hook as well as blade stamped examples in M8 scabbards from vets.

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Just to throw a wrench into the thought process I have several mint, guard marked M3s that came in mint, M6 scabbards. You just don't know for sure. I have seen dated M3s, in M8 scabbards. Did the soldier swap it out, or did it come that way? To be honest, if it wasn't for Gary, I probably would never even looked at the numbers. Guys, they're your knives, place them in the scabbards you feel are appropriate, you're probably not gonna be wrong. The only folks who would even look or care are collectors like ourselves. Enjoy your hobby! SKIP

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Well, I understand your points of view, and yes, sure it's not the case to agonize, nor to be too sensitive about details: at the end it is just an hobby. But I also think that, if and where possible, it's better to have a totally period correct item (i.e. the "right" scabbard, or the "right" liner for the M1 pot); item value apart (which counts, especially when you buy), I feel I'm collecting historical artifacts, so I prefer to be the more accurate I can.

And places like this forum are really invaluable in being educated by the vast knowledge of the fellows members.

Thanks for your inputs, I really appreciate. Just excuse my poor English, hope you understand what I meant.

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ziomanno- Great discussion! Everyone enjoyed it, and we got a lot of good input. I'm sure more of the gang will add a little info. Helmets, are way out of my league, or expertise. I know what I wore over a 20 year army career, steel pots, and a Kevlar. Not sure what issues you have w/ language, I saw none. Don't be so conscientious. Enjoy the site! SKIP

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I think you need to be careful in swapping pieces with the idea that you are making something more "period correct." As Skip has pointed out, combinations that don't make sense in terms of all pieces being of the same period happen quite often in this hobby. That's because the military was not taking into account future collectors when they issued these items. Swapping a scabbard may make a combination period correct, but no longer is either the blade or the scabbard correct as issued or is the combination in its original configuration. Occasionally it may make sense to swap a scabbard or sheath but more often than not it's best to leave them as you acquired them. Just my opinion.

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I generally leave something as found.As a young collector back in the 70s and early 80s there wasn't to much messed with.(like Today).Granted you had guys who sharpened knives,had to "clean" them,slopped saddle soap or neets foot oil on leather etc.

 

Its like those who take an M1 Garand or carbine and start swapping parts to make it "correct or "original"To me the rifle is most original as found.Its condition when it left military service or when it came out through the DCM/CMP is how it ended its life.I see the next generation in the works...when the 1911 45 auto pistols start trickling out from the CMP there will be a rush to make them correct.Im guessing parts will start to sky rocket in price more than they are now.

 

Anyway here is the knife I mentioned earlier.It came from a Major (William Buckley) 117th Inf Regt 30th Division.He was at the battle of the Bulge and I have his uniform as well.

 

I also looked over several others I have and all have various markings some a BN with single number

 

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