Interwar 1st Cavalry Division patches

[kiaiokalewa]

Cross section of original First Cavalry Division sub-unit Shoulder Insignia.

[patches]

Beutlies,

[tredhed2]

These are all real. I hope everyone is saving photos of these images so you know what REAL period originals look like.

[Vneal487]

What units are these patches. You can see that they are made of Melton wool twill.

 

im sure that the black with 1 star is a HQ patch but I’m not sure about the red bend with black horse head. It’s it DIVARTY since the blue bend blue head is second squadron, & blue bend with red head is first squadron.

 

I appreciate your comments.

[Vneal487]

Here’s a nice 1933-1935 Melton Wool Twill & felt 1st Cavalry black on yellow patch. This coat is rare in that it has the silver cuff braid.

 

I know many have never seen the silver braid.

[tredhed2]

Top is a repro of 82nd FA Bn (bend is felt not melton wool)

 

Div commander has two stars , black horse head; bde commanders have one star, black bend and either red or blue horse head

 

 

[manayunkman]

1 hour ago, Vneal487 said:

Here’s a nice 1933-1935 Melton Wool Twill & felt 1st Cavalry black on yellow patch. This coat is rare in that it has the silver cuff braid.

 

I know many have never seen the silver braid.

I never even heard of it.

 

What’s the story behind them?

[manayunkman]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:05 PM, kiaiokalewa said:

Cross section of original First Cavalry Division sub-unit Shoulder Insignia.

Don’t know how I missed this thread.

 

Exquisite collection.

[kiaiokalewa]

3 hours ago, Vneal487 said:

What units are these patches. You can see that they are made of Melton wool twill.

 

im sure that the black with 1 star is a HQ patch but I’m not sure about the red bend with black horse head. It’s it DIVARTY since the blue bend blue head is second squadron, & blue bend with red head is first squadron.

 

I appreciate your comments.

When both of these were active on eBay a few weeks ago I covered them here on the forum in the pinned "Interwar Patch" section.  Both are knock off using the infamous Ft. Bliss Replica Museum "Kincaid" dies.  The give away is the style of Horse head.  I covered the entire original series of 19 in the Trading Post (ASMICs quartly publication) 2020-21.  

Tredhed2 hits the nail on the head and that both are reproduction and as he had stated.  82nd FA wrong materials and only the Division Command patch had a black horse head, black bend with two (2) stars.  1st and 2nd Brigade Commander patch had red and blue horse head (respectively) and black bend with (1) star only.  

The one illustrated does not represent any of the approved and authorized for wear 1st Cavalry Division unit specific patches between 1922-1934.   This is  the very reason that both of the auctions ended at there opening bid of $65.  

Now on the other hand and shortly after these two were finalized a 2nd Brigade Commander patch (blue  horse head, black bend with (1) star that just closed on eBay a few days ago just over $180.  It was the real deal and even withmoth damaged it was worth the pursuit.  This type was part of the initial run by the PQMD that was issued to the troops circa. 1922-28. 

[kiaiokalewa]

2 hours ago, manayunkman said:

Don’t know how I missed this thread.

 

Exquisite collection.

I've added since and will be adding more images.  I've live over on the Interwar section of the forum and you'll be able to see more of the interwar collection. 

[kiaiokalewa]

18 hours ago, kiaiokalewa said:

When both of these were active on eBay a few weeks ago I covered them here on the forum in the pinned "Interwar Patch" section.  Both are knock off using the infamous Ft. Bliss Replica Museum "Kincaid" dies.  The give away is the style of Horse head.  I covered the entire original series of 19 in the Trading Post (ASMICs quartly publication) 2020-21.  

Tredhed2 hits the nail on the head and that both are reproduction and as he had stated.  82nd FA wrong materials and only the Division Command patch had a black horse head, black bend with two (2) stars.  1st and 2nd Brigade Commander patch had red and blue horse head (respectively) and black bend with (1) star only.  

The one illustrated does not represent any of the approved and authorized for wear 1st Cavalry Division unit specific patches between 1922-1934.   This is  the very reason that both of the auctions ended at there opening bid of $65.  

Now on the other hand and shortly after these two were finalized a 2nd Brigade Commander patch (blue  horse head, black bend with (1) star that just closed on eBay a few days ago just over $180.  It was the real deal and even withmoth damaged it was worth the pursuit.  This type was part of the initial run by the PQMD that was issued to the troops circa. 1922-28. 

Below is my initial response to the two reproduction "Kincaid" die made 1st Cavalry Division patches that closed on eBay a few weeks ago.  

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's the Division Commander that I referred to in that initial post.  

[tredhed2]

This is another fake made w/ the Kincaid dies. Be advised, there is another version of this patch w/ one very narrow red bend. There are others w/ the same narrow bend.

[kiaiokalewa]

3 hours ago, tredhed2 said:

This is another fake made w/ the Kincaid dies. Be advised, there is another version of this patch w/ one very narrow red bend. There are others w/ the same narrow bend.

As##

[kiaiokalewa]

A fake for sure.  All that one needs know is the proper color combinations for the charges, the six (6) different types of the original series of nineteen (19).  In addition one must know the bends, bendlets, piping, mullets ect. to also determine the specific unit.  

 

So yeah,  join ASMIC,  order the back issues from 2020-2021 to get the whole scoop on this historic series of patches.  It's illustrated with photographs, colorized portraits, official documents and blue prints of the original series, to include illustrations of all the patches issued to the troops. 

[kiaiokalewa]

The 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Brigade Commander, Staff and Troop together with 1st Cavalry Division Commander, Staff and Troop patch.  Note the distinctive horse head shape.  

 

On uniform is a 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Brigade, 2nd Cavalry Regiment patch.  Yes, the unit specific patch was exclusive to the 8th Cavalry Regiment throughout it entire authorization use circa. 1922-34, however, the point of showing Lt. McDonald's uniform is to establish that this style of patch (in specific horse head shape) was the first type issued to the troops.  McDonald's was a short timetable never to return into the service again (1919-1925).  

The last patch illustrated is 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Regiment.  Again yes, this unit specific patch was exclusively worn by the troops of the 7th Cavalry Regiment.  This particular example is attributed to Col. Dorcy whom was service related discharged in 1922, when the entire original series of nineteen (19) was authorized for use.  

 

So,  the real exercise here is to point out what an authentic first series and issued to the troops 1st Cavalry Division patch should look like.  

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's another 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Brigade, 2nd Cavalry Regiment Lt. Col. Uniform (post 1926).  Again the patch is unit specific to the 8th Cavalry Regiment. 

 

Confused yet? 

 

The labeling was not selected by 1st Cavalry Division but rather designed by OQMG for accounting reasons.  Case and point and within the 1st Brigade, both Cavalry Regiments in the Brigade changed from 4th to 5th and 1st to 12th.  The regiments replacing the former simply continue wearing the former trooper's Shoulder Insignia. 

 

Getting back to the uniform here we have an El Paso, Texas, tailor made patch from Kincaid Tailor Shop.  This can be established by the distinctive horse head shape.    

[MPage]

This first type is on a coat made 1925-1926.  It's for the 2d Brigade, 1st Regiment (7th Cavalry).

 

 

[Vneal487]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:01 PM, manayunkman said:

I never even heard of it.

 

What’s the story behind them?

The silver braid is an officer who completed military school at the end of the war but didn’t receive a commission until after the Armistice of 11 Nov 1918.

[Salvage Sailor]

Photo:  Looks like an Engineer officer of the 1st US Cavalry Division, 1933 Laredo Texas (and the lad is armed!)

[kiaiokalewa]

Great pix.  If you zoom in on the Shoulder Patch you can make out the dual 1/8" white piping on the bend.  The bend is scarlet in color with black horse head.  This photo opportunity  was  taken while the unit was assigned to Ft. McIntosh.

[kiaiokalewa]

Division Commander and Staff, as listed on the official War Department Blue Print CE 5-2-10, dated January 20, 1923, calls this particular patch style Type I.  The distinction is the devices upon the black bend.  In this case 2 (two) yellow mullets (stars).

[kiaiokalewa]

Out of the 6 (six) categories designated to the 1st Cavalry Division's Shoulder Insignia series the Air Service is Type VI, as indicated by the 2 (two) golden orange bendlets (piping/stripe) upon an ultramarine blue bend.

 

 

 

 

[kiaiokalewa]

The uniqueness of these two 1st Cavalry Division  patches are the method of construction.  The chainstitched charges on either shield are not typically encountered on any of the 19 (nineteen) unit specific 1st Cavarly Division patches. 

 

However, these two examples exhibit construction exceptions by breaking the rules of the normal expectations of appliqué method.  Since both Division Commander & Staff and Air Service were limited in personnel size small production runs locally would make prefect sense for this two organizations.   Beats going  through the regular  procurment channels of the time...