Distinguished Service Cross Questions

[Brian R]

Hello everyone - I have some questions and I'm hoping you guys can help. I have been reading various threads on this site for some time, and have been getting a general sense of this subject, but I'm still learning and in a bit of a fog. Basically, I'm trying to understand the makers of the DSC, when they were made, and what conflicts they can generally be attributed to.

 

According to The Call Of Duty by Stranderg and Bender, there were approximately 6,481 DSCs awarded during or related to the First World War. Additionally, for research purposes, only a fraction are traceable; less than 5,000 according to Adam Rohlhoff's website.

 

WWI Distinguished Service Cross #1 to #3782 (approx. 2430 numbers), #5501 to #8000 (all). Is it safe to say that numbered crosses that are higher than 8,000 could be WWII versions? And, were a number of crosses within the 1-8,000 range not actually awarded in WWI, since only 6,481 were actually rendered?

 

Were DSCs made within this initial batch, or batches, used to make the earliest WWII awards before more orders were placed with this company, or a new one?

 

I see many references to "Robbins Contract", but does anyone know these dates, how many orders there were, and what variations there were? In particular, I see crosses posted on the forums as Robbins Contract examples, but the brooch often has cross-like indentations by the hinge and catch on, what appears to be, later models. Also, there appears to have been a switch from the copper-like slot brooch on the WWII models to a darker brooch.

 

So, who made the initial WWII DSCs? Robbins, or possibly Rex Product Company or even BB&B? Could Robbins have made WWII and WWII era crosses but changed their design?

 

The two examples below vary, one is numbered in the 900 range and the other is numbered in the 9,000 range (someone said it's in the 6,000 range but I'm still thinking 9,000). As you can see, the brooches are different (I know the pictures suck) but the crosses are clearly different as well. You can see it on the round ends when comparing the two. Would it make sense that a DSC in the 9000 range be among the earlier WWII awards? This last question is especially interesting as I'm guessing "early" in this case could be early 1944. Similar to the Silver Star, I am intrigued by, what appears to be, that most high-level infantry awards in WWII are from 1945, particularly during the push into Germany.

 

As you can see, I have a number of questions and I'm trying to get a good sense as to which numbered crosses are attributable to which periods. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!

 

Thanks,

Brian

 

 

[Brian R]

1

[MMcollector]

Here is some information I compiled from the forum years back. If anyone can add or correct this information that would be great.

 

ARMY DISTINGUISHED CROSS MEDAL CONTRACTS:

1918 US Mint, 1 - 8000 (45* Wrap Brooch) (4000 block used for WW2)

BB&B, 8464 - 13116 (Slot Brooch)

1942 Medallic Art Co., 10001 - 11200 - (Slot Brooch)

US Mint, 13644 - 28870 (45* Wrap Brooch)

2/17/1945? Robbins Co., (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

9/18/1945? Robbins Co., (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

12/3/1945 Robbins Co. (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

[Brian R]

Thank you, MMcollector. Your information is very helpful and helps me understand what makers there were, and when, in general, their wares were awarded. Now I see that my 900 awarded cross is from the original batch from the US Mint. This award came on November 6, 1918.

 

I can see that the numbers awarded in WWI (roughly 6,500) fit well with the 8,000+/- made, given that the 4,000s appear to have been a awarded in WWII. This also gives me a little bit more confidence that the 9,800 numbered one pictured above (made by BB& could have been awarded in summer 1944 (as loosely assumed, but certainly not confirmed). I see from reading posts on this forum that a number of 8,000 marked crosses were awarded in early 1943 for actions in late 1942. I don't have a good sense of when the 4,000s were awarded but I'm guessing they could have come right before, or just after, the 8,000 crosses. It certainly does seem that early WWII crosses - late 1942 through early 1944 were likely limited to the 4,000s, and 8,000 to 15,000 marked crosses. Obviously, there will be overlap as the crosses were likely in stocks with various commands and not awarded in order. It can bee seen here on post #7 of this thread. There is a trend, but the crosses were awarded in order based on various stocks.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/311157-distinguished-service-cross-numbers/

 

I'm also guessing, from what I have seen of awards over the years, that most bravery awards like the DSC and Silver Star were actually awarded late in the war (late 1944 through the spring of 1945). So, again, I'm seeing a bit more clarity in these trends. That said, I'm going by anecdotes and possibly insignificant sample sizes based on postings I've seen here on the forum. I appreciate any additional insight from the community here!!

[Brian R]

As shown, I think the general rule for early crosses and their related numbers - as shown above - is generally reasonable. The range that ends at 15,000 for WWII crosses is not though, as shown by Mr. Nier in the thread linked above. As production rose and stocks were filled, the numbered crosses that were actually awarded became more widespread. Mr. Nier makes a great point about production that was ultimately not awarded (in WWII).

[InfantryCollector]

Good thread Brian. Helpful for a "newer" US collector like myself.

 

John

[Tom Nier]

The problem with tracking numbered DSCs awsrded during WW II is their huge over-production. The DSC total to the US Army for WW2 was only 5057 medals. My math adds up about 16,300 numbered DSCs available for issue during the war. That indicates an excess of at least about 11,000 numbered DSCs, since many Robbins unnumbered medals were awarded as well.

 

This excess is reflected in my census of WW2 DSCs conducted over many years. Of 192 Cross numbers tallied to date, only 43 (22%)were attributable, and the other 149 were not.

 

The same situation of over-production also occurs with the numbered DSM and numbered Silver Star Medal

[Tom Nier]

Here is some information I compiled from the forum years back. If anyone can add or correct this information that would be great.

 

ARMY DISTINGUISHED CROSS MEDAL CONTRACTS:

1918 US Mint, 1 - 8000 (45* Wrap Brooch) (4000 block used for WW2)

BB&B, 8464 - 13116 (Slot Brooch)

1942 Medallic Art Co., 10001 - 11200 - (Slot Brooch)

US Mint, 13644 - 28870 (45* Wrap Brooch)

2/17/1945? Robbins Co., (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

9/18/1945? Robbins Co., (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

12/3/1945 Robbins Co. (Un-Numbered) (Black Slot Brooch)

Clinton:

 

Thanks for sharing your DSC contract data again. In your original thread of May 2014, you illustrated DSC #13116 which you had acquired in a cardboard box with a large "13116"label at one end. If at all possible, would you please show us the rest of this contract label?? This boxed DSC #13116 is the "Rosetta Stone" which finally proves (to my satisfaction at least) that BB&B did indeed produce the 8464 to 13116 range of DSCs. On the same theme, do you have any firm evidence for Medallic Art having made the 10001 to 11200 DSC bracket??

 

By the way, my DSC census of many years shows continuity in every 1000 medal bracket up to and ending

in the 23,000 range. The DSC #28870 remains a lone anomaly way "out in left field." I personally examined this Cross when it was auctioned by FJP in August 1996. These digits were cleanly and clearly struck on the lower cross arm (right side). The assembled DSC was flawless in every respect. I can only assume that the operator of the number stampng machine at the Mint somehow inserted an "8" for the 2nd numeral instead of a 0, 1, 2, or 3. Or maybe a "2" in the 1st digit instead of a "1".

 

Best wishes to all, Tom Nier

[MMcollector]

Clinton:

 

Thanks for sharing your DSC contract data again. In your original thread of May 2014, you illustrated DSC #13116 which you had acquired in a cardboard box with a large "13116"label at one end. If at all possible, would you please show us the rest of this contract label?? This boxed DSC #13116 is the "Rosetta Stone" which finally proves (to my satisfaction at least) that BB&B did indeed produce the 8464 to 13116 range of DSCs. On the same theme, do you have any firm evidence for Medallic Art having made the 10001 to 11200 DSC bracket??

 

By the way, my DSC census of many years shows continuity in every 1000 medal bracket up to and ending

in the 23,000 range. The DSC #28870 remains a lone anomaly way "out in left field." I personally examined this Cross when it was auctioned by FJP in August 1996. These digits were cleanly and clearly struck on the lower cross arm (right side). The assembled DSC was flawless in every respect. I can only assume that the operator of the number stampng machine at the Mint somehow inserted an "8" for the 2nd numeral instead of a 0, 1, 2, or 3. Or maybe a "2" in the 1st digit instead of a "1".

 

Best wishes to all, Tom Nier

Hello Tom! Can you please link me to that initial post from 2014? I cannot find it and cant say i even remember that DSC. I have tons of photos saved so I might have what you need. I do not have any evidence for the Medallic Art contract I believe thats just more information I pulled from this forum from someones post on a DSC discussion.

[Tom Nier]

Clinton:

 

Unfortunately I had trimmed off the linkage key of your 18 May 2014 thread that discussed the WW2 DSC varieties. Can the 2014 thread be located by searching just lts title??

"WW2 BB&B Army Distinguished Service Cross.....

[Hermanus]

Perhaps all forumites who own manufacturer labelled DSC boxes can share a picture of this label. Perhaps this will help listing the manufacturers in combination with the numbers..

 

As Tom and Clinton I am also interested.

 

On a sidenote. I tried to catalogue all numbered PHs. As the highest number is around 602,000 an impossible quest and after a few years I stopped with it. But I did not stop cataloging the numbered ones around an official contracted manufacturer change. Those are the most interesting ones as the water muddies there. Especially around the 60,000 to 69,000 range. Reading through the DSC topics I sense perhaps the same happened with the numbered DSCs.

 

Interesting to say the least.

Regards

Herman

[MattS]

I'm also guessing, from what I have seen of awards over the years, that most bravery awards like the DSC and Silver Star were actually awarded late in the war (late 1944 through the spring of 1945).

 

Prior to June 6th, 1944, American infantry fought in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and various islands in the Pacific, but the number of valor awards that were earned seem minuscule compared to the European fighting after D-Day. I'm sure it was because of the vast numbers of grunts fighting the retreating Germans those last 12 months. More men in combat means more acts of bravery (and more witnesses).

[Tom Nier]

One good method for identifying an original DSC in the 84xx to 131xx number range is to look closely at its ribbon. Its 2 red stripes are orange-red, its 2 white stripes are much narrower, and its center is a bright royal blue. In contrast, the Mint ribbon stock seen on DSC numbers above & below this range has plain red strtipes, a dark indigo blue center, and wider white stripes.

 

Withj regard to the WW2 issue of DSCs from the 4000 block (not used in WW1), my census has record of 17 Crosses with 4xxx numbers noted in collections. Eight are attributed mostly to early WW2 recipients, the other nine are not .

[Nuts44]

 

Prior to June 6th, 1944, American infantry fought in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and various islands in the Pacific, but the number of valor awards that were earned seem minuscule compared to the European fighting after D-Day. I'm sure it was because of the vast numbers of grunts fighting the retreating Germans those last 12 months. More men in combat means more acts of bravery (and more witnesses).

It should also be noted that when it came to Airborne units on D-Day it was decided to award EXTREMELY

few DSCs per Airborne Division.

[FrankEaton01]

I don't believe BB&B produced numbered Distinguished Service Crosses during WWII. The Robbins Co. made the first numbered WWII DSCs under Contract No. W669 of December 30, 1941. They have wide red stripes, a small diameter suspension ring with the ends soldered closed, and are numbered on the (viewer's) left side of the lower cross arm. The lowest serial number I've observed from this contract is 98xx and the highest is 131xx. Most of the examples I've seen have a copper-colored slot brooch, but two had the black slot brooch commonly found on the January 1945 Robbins Co. DSC contract.

[FrankEaton01]

Medallic Art Co. produced the second run of numbered WWII DSCs under P.O. 10408 of January 20, 1943. These crosses have a wrap brooch, a large diameter suspension ring, and are numbered on the (viewer's) right side of the lower cross arm. The lowest number I've seen from this contract is 141xx and the highest is 214xx.

[Nuts44]

Fantastic reference and photos Frank. So, a high 19xxx wrapped brooch cross is a Medallic Arts piece or is it US Mint? Thank you

[Hermanus]

Thanks Frank, this is what I meant. Building a small database of knowledge and with photographic evidence.

 

Now we know a bit more and it puts the BB&B contract into question with hard solid evidence.

 

Regards

Herman

[Hermanus]

MMcollector, perhaps you have some additional information.

 

The 2 DSCs Frank showed us above have a big similarity timeline wise with the 2 contracts you mentioned for the numbered Silver stars.

A Robbins contract for # 50,001 to 100,000 and a Medallic Art contract for #100,001 to 118,889.

 

Regards

Herman

[Nuts44]

In trying to figure out what stamped numbers are to which manufacturer I have this question? Did the US Mint make the crosses in the 19k range or did Medallic Arts? Does the "45*" represent the year manufactured?

 

"US Mint, 13644 - 28870 (45* Wrap Brooch)"

 

"Medallic Art Co. produced the second run of numbered WWII DSCs under P.O. 10408 of January 20, 1943. These crosses have a wrap brooch, a large diameter suspension ring, and are numbered on the (viewer's) right side of the lower cross arm. The lowest number I've seen from this contract is 141xx and the highest is 214xx."

[MMcollector]

As mentioned in my original post, these number ranges were compiled by me from forum member posts. I put multiple threads of information together, I lastly mentioned that if anyone could correct or add to this list. I dont think its a list to bet your money on, as the boxes lids with the ranges havent been confirmed for any BB&B medals. Tom has been at this a lot longer than myself, so if there evidence out there of BBB DSC in WWII hed be the one to find it. I searched again through my records and cannot find the photo of the Cross Tom is referring to that I posted, nor can I find said post.

 

The *45 was my own addition as to the type of closure on the wrap brooch.

 

Sorry I cant be more help at the moment. I will be in contact with Allen Menke soon, Im sure he can shed some light on the subject.

[Nuts44]

As mentioned in my original post, these number ranges were compiled by me from forum member posts. I put multiple threads of information together, I lastly mentioned that if anyone could correct or add to this list. I dont think its a list to bet your money on, as the boxes lids with the ranges havent been confirmed for any BB&B medals. Tom has been at this a lot longer than myself, so if there evidence out there of BBB DSC in WWII hed be the one to find it. I searched again through my records and cannot find the photo of the Cross Tom is referring to that I posted, nor can I find said post.

 

The *45 was my own addition as to the type of closure on the wrap brooch.

 

Sorry I cant be more help at the moment. I will be in contact with Allen Menke soon, Im sure he can shed some light on the subject.

Thanks for your reply.

[mars&thunder]

A DSC Robbins contract, but in the post-numbered (1945) era. Found this in a folder of shots I was putting together to document various contracts for all WW2 medals/decorations.

 

Regards -

 

[Nuts44]

A DSC Robbins contract, but in the post-numbered (1945) era. Found this in a folder of shots I was putting together to document various contracts for all WW2 medals/decorations.

 

Regards -

 

DSC_Robbins_2-17-45A.jpg

Assuming this has the typicle black brooch.

[Hermanus]

A DSC Robbins contract, but in the post-numbered (1945) era. Found this in a folder of shots I was putting together to document various contracts for all WW2 medals/decorations.

 

Regards -

 

DSC_Robbins_2-17-45A.jpg

Great picture, keep them coming friends. Let's establish a timeline.

 

Regards

Herman