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bobgee
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Thought perhaps the medal collectors out there might like to see closeups of the 1931 NAVY CROSS with original ribbon bar as awarded to Col. Archer and shown on the USMC Navy Cross Nicaragua thread posted previously. As shown below, it appears to be what is referred to as the "Black Widow" type from the early WWII era but it is not.

 

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Below are three different period Navy Crosses for comparison.

 

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On the viewer's left is a 1943 award of a so-called "Black Widow" type cross. It is of one-piece construction, finished in gun-metal black on all metal parts. Note the full-wrap brooch with ball-type lock, as manufactured by the U.S. Mint under Navy contact. In 1944, the cross was awarded in a bronze finish (not shown).

 

In the middle is Col. Archer's 1931 award, which is clearly transitional. It has a U.S. Mint split brooch with ball-type lock and is of three-piece construction, i.e. both disks are manufactured separately and braised to the obverse & reverse of the cross, just like it's WWI original counterpart, but it is finished in a medium dark bronze finish on all metal parts. Not too many of these "between the wars" Crosses are known as the award numbers were few.

 

On the right is the first type WWI Cross as awarded to Capt. Wass USMC in 1920. It is of three-piece construction and finished in a pleasing bronze finish, as is the split brooch. However, note that this production, manufactured by Bailey, Banks and Biddle of Philadephia, has an open catch. The ribbon is of the original production with a narrow 1/8th inch white center stripe. Unfortunately it is deteriorating which is a common problem for this early silk ribbon. The ribbons on the earlier Crosses are Navy Blue, appearing almost black. The later ones are ribboned with a slightly lighter blue color.

 

Please feel free to ask any questions.

Bobgee

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dhcoleterracina

Thanks for posting such great medals for us. Its very helpful to see them side by side for comparison. Do you know why the NC made their ribbons one and a half inches wide? I dont believe a SS PH or DSC of the same vintage were made that way.

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Thanks for posting such great medals for us. Its very helpful to see them side by side for comparison. Do you know why the NC made their ribbons one and a half inches wide? I dont believe a SS PH or DSC of the same vintage were made that way.

 

Sorry, I don't know specifically. I've got to assume that the Navy Dept specified it at the time. Perhaps more specific info is hidden away in a reference. I'll keep my eye out. Or, maybe a Forum member can answer the question?

Thanks....Bobgee

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Bob,

Thanks for posting your Navy Cross photos .Here are 2 from my collection the left one is the early one and the right is from VN.

To add to the thread the early one has its issues with the ribbon but I'm leaving it in its original shape.

Thanks Dan

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teufelhunde.ret

Bob, thank you for sharing these period original medals - excellent visual reference for the forum. Re the "deteriorating which is a common problem for this early silk ribbon" - are there any methods by which this can be stopped and or controlled? s/f Darrell

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Bob, Thanks for the education - I love these NC's as much if not more than the DSC's. When I started acquiring WW1 Navy Cross groupings, I was unaware that there were three different criteria in which one could receive the NC. - I'm sure you know that all were not awarded for valor. My Navy Cross group to Roben was awarded for Merit while a squadron commander in the First Marine Aviation Forces. He was however cited for valor (and wounded) in Haiti. When purchasing a NC, one should determine what his citation reads as it plays a real part in determining value. The history of this award is a fun study!

 

Best, Dennis

 

By the way, - You have some wonderful items in your collection.

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bobgee said:
Sorry, I don't know specifically. I've got to assume that the Navy Dept specified it at the time. Perhaps more specific info is hidden away in a reference. I'll keep my eye out. Or, maybe a Forum member can answer the question?

Thanks....Bobgee

 

 

I do not know if i can reproduce this or not OMSA book. However, I will for the sake of education and for educational purpose only. This OMSA book has been in my possesion for sometime. 1994. It is 1-9

I hope this helps this thread BOB.

4starchris

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  • 1 month later...
Garth Thompson

The early WW2 Navy Crosses had a very dark finish caused by oxidation of the metal used for the pendant. That is all there is to the "black widow" Navy Cross. Although rare it is mearly a manufacturing variation. All the WW2 ribbons will be 1 9/16" wide with a 1/8" center stripe and post 1948 the ribbon will be 1 3/8" wide. ref THE CALL OF DUTY pgs 104 - 109.

Garth

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The early WW2 Navy Crosses had a very dark finish caused by oxidation of the metal used for the pendant. That is all there is to the "black widow" Navy Cross. Although rare it is mearly a manufacturing variation. All the WW2 ribbons will be 1 9/16" wide with a 1/8" center stripe and post 1948 the ribbon will be 1 3/8" wide. ref THE CALL OF DUTY pgs 104 - 109.

Garth

Garth ,

I measured the ribbon and it is 1 3/8th so is the finish correct for the time period?

Dan

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Garth Thompson
Garth ,

I measured the ribbon and it is 1 3/8th so is the finish correct for the time period?

Dan

Dan,

I think the medal may have been reribboned which to me isn't a particularly big deal as I collect british medals as well.

Garth

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Dan,

I think the medal may have been reribboned which to me isn't a particularly big deal as I collect british medals as well.

Garth

Garth,

Thats what I was thinking but just wanted to be sure that it was correct this is a fill in until I run across a WW I issue.I know that the earlier ribbons fall apart like the other one I posted before on the Navy cross thread.Thanks for all your help.

Cheers

Dan

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  • 9 months later...

Here is a Navy Cross miniature.

Looks like the "Black Widow" version ?!

 

Any information about the time it was used?

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  • 3 months later...

EM3c Alfred H. Akers' Navy Cross Citation:

 

The President of the United States of America takes pride in presenting the Navy Cross (Posthumously) to Electrician's Mate Third Class Alfred Howard Akers (NSN: 3377714), United States Navy, for extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty in action against the enemy while serving on board the Destroyer U.S.S. REID (DD-369), in action against the enemy on 11 December 1944, in the Mindanao Sea in the Philippine Islands. Electrician's mate Third Class Akers demonstrated outstanding heroism and self-sacrifice in assisting a wounded shipmate escape from the U.S.S. REID, while she was afire and sinking as the result of an enemy air attack on 11 December 1944. Although the ship was literally ripped apart in the vicinity of his battle station, the steering motor room, and was already flooding through his escape hatch, Electricians Mate Third Class Akers forfeited his opportunity to escape in order to assist a wounded shipmate up through the hatch and into the clear. Within seconds the ship rolled over and sank. The gallant courage and spirit of self-sacrifice displayed by Electrician's Mate Third Class Akers exemplifies the highest traditions of the Navy of the United States. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

 

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So I was digging around on line through back issues of "All Hands" magazine, and I found a pic of Akers.

 

Here's his pic, and the description of the action, as reported in the Feb 1946 issue:

 

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  • 5 months later...
Bobertizkewl

Hi,

 

I was just wondering what is a "Black Widow" version of a Navy Cross and how is it any different from a regular one?

 

 

 

Thanks.

John

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Some Navy Cross info. from the Navy history website.

 

 

One legendary variation picked up the informal nickname "Black Widow" (Fig. 2) and was in use about 1941-1942, in which the medal itself and its wrap broach were over-anodized and sported a very dark, even black finish. Ironically, many of the "Black Widow" awards were posthumous.

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To carry the anecdotal story a little further, I understand that these "black widow" Navy Crosses were first made for awarding 45 NCs to Navy personnel involved with the rescue and re-floating of the USS Squalus in May 1939. It was thought the black finish was more artistic. Residual stocks were used up in the early stages of WW2. However, Navy recipients soon considered the black widow to bring bad luck, in view of its many posthumous awards. So the Navy resorted to the bronze finish Navy Cross still in use today.

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Another anecdote about Black Widows:

 

Captain Carl R. Dwyer's Navy Cross group (Navy Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star) was stolen many years ago by a notorious medal thief. When we recovered the group and returned the medals to Capt Dwyer, his Navy Cross had been painted and was pitted and chipped and very rough. When asked about it, he said that he received a bronze issue and was very unhappy about it. His comment was "Sub skippers got Black Widows, and they gave me this bronze thing. So, I took it down to the machine shop and painted it."

 

Clearly he expected a Black Widow as recogntion of his status as a successful sub skipper (USS Puffer) and felt the Navy had snubbed him. He took matters into his own hands with a classic GI solution.

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Well, it's always important to think of medals as supply items. When a specific medal gets manufactured and when it is awarded can vary greatly.

 

So in terms of supply, many sub commanders were awarded Black Widows, because that was what in stock in Pearl Harbor or Freemantle. By the time Captain Dwyer received his award (March of 1945), the sub bases probably had exhausted their Black Widow supply and received a new shipment of the bronze NCs.

 

The reputation that the Black Widow was a posthumous award came about because that's what was in stock at the Bureau of Naval Personnel in Washington DC. In the case of the Akers NC , the NC was awarded for a December 1944 action, so it wouldn't have been mailed to his NOK until sometime in 1945. Obviously BUPERS had existing Black Widow stock at that time.

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  • 3 months later...

Thoughts? I'm having a hard time placing this one in a category. Black Widow? One of the 1920s-30s types? The finish is black, and the planchet is a one piece strike.

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Andy

 

I don't feel Black Widow, the planchet doesn't look like the typical BW black oxidation you normally see, I detect what i perceive as the base metal color on the high points of the obverse and reverse. I suspect WW II at least and likely earlier based on the photos and not having it in hand.

T

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