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Buyer safety for Ordnance Collecting


AdamD1776
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Your chance of finding an Ordnance piece post WW2 fully loaded and charged approach winning the mega lottery. The odds get even tougher with WW1-WW2 dated ordnance. Do you really think the bulk of serviceman that brought home souvenirs were dumb?

 

 

Yea well..... I was at NTC in California in 1990 and a couple of the guys had found some big rusty shells and brought them back to the barracks

and wanted to bring them back in their bags! Yup... all junior officers.... I was a staff sergeant and I knew better.

They did not bring them back. So yes, a lot of service members can be and are dumb.

Like the mechanic I watched idly bouncing a 3 pound hammer on a tire untl it bounced back and hit him in the forehead.

Or the kid who accidently fired a star cluster into the back of the kid in front of him.

Or the kid who fired his m203 grenade launcher with the tangent sight swung out. He fired and the sight went through his upper lip.

Or the time I came up behnd a sergeant in the field kicking at something in the ground. It was an unexploded tank round with

a penetrator round....... I told him to stop.

Or the kid I found in the px who had an atwis traing round in his pocket. Simulates rocket blast for a LAW or TOW...

It was live ..... Shoots thousand degree flame 10 feet out the back.

Or the time I was standing next to a guy digging a foxhole and he lifted up a shovel full of mortar round.

I never even went to combat of any kind. Just Trained and trained and.....

I could go on and on because some of the dumbest things I've seen in my life happened in the military.

So yup... Its real possible in my honest opinion.

I wouldnt mess with unexploded ordinance. We found that stuff all the time in training areas.

We had to call EOD and mark it and leave it alone.

I was around for when EOD blew up some of the stuff we found.

Dont know if you ever heard one of those things go off. But it puts the fear into you.

In spite of all that.....

There was always some jug head who wanted to play with the stuff.

Yea not always so smart...

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Your chance of finding an Ordnance piece post WW2 fully loaded and charged approach winning the mega lottery. The odds get even tougher with WW1-WW2 dated ordnance. Do you really think the bulk of serviceman that brought home souvenirs were dumb?

 

 

Yea well..... I was at NTC in California in 1990 and a couple of the guys had found some big rusty shells and brought them back to the barracks

and wanted to bring them back in their bags! Yup... all junior officers.... I was a staff sergeant and I knew better.

They did not bring them back. So yes, a lot of service members can be and are dumb.

Like the mechanic I watched idly bouncing a 3 pound hammer on a tire untl it bounced back and hit him in the forehead.

Or the kid who accidently fired a star cluster into the back of the kid in front of him.

Or the kid who fired his m203 grenade launcher with the tangent sight swung out. He fired and the sight went through his upper lip.

Or the time I came up behnd a sergeant in the field kicking at something in the ground. It was an unexploded tank round with

a penetrator round....... I told him to stop.

Or the kid I found in the px who had an atwis traing round in his pocket. Simulates rocket blast for a LAW or TOW...

It was live ..... Shoots thousand degree flame 10 feet out the back.

Or the time I was standing next to a guy digging a foxhole and he lifted up a shovel full of mortar round.

I never even went to combat of any kind. Just Trained and trained and.....

I could go on and on because some of the dumbest things I've seen in my life happened in the military.

So yup... Its real possible in my honest opinion.

I wouldnt mess with unexploded ordinance. We found that stuff all the time in training areas.

We had to call EOD and mark it and leave it alone.

I was around for when EOD blew up some of the stuff we found.

Dont know if you ever heard one of those things go off. But it puts the fear into you.

In spite of all that.....

There was always some jug head who wanted to play with the stuff.

Yea not always so smart...

As mentioned, Range pick ups are in a class of themselves, as are live items stolen by active duty personell. This discussion is geared towards Ordnance commonly found on line, gun shows, antique shops, WW2 era vet hand downs, not current era pieces stolen by active duty, black market , gangs, range pick ups, etc. Another fact not mentioned that gives comfort is the amount of ATF agents that actively look ( 24/7) for live Ordnance, without going into details, the effort is HUGE, ongoing, and supports my statements. Everyone has an opinion, but long time Ordnance collectors and dealers have little concern, .gov is and has been very actively involved for years.

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Greetings. I understand what the conversation is geared toward.

I only took issue with your one sentance.

 

"Do you really think the bulk of serviceman that brought home souvenirs were dumb? "

 

And yes I am sure that some of them were. Take the officers in my unit in 1990.

They were all college educated. Yet they were trying to fly these rusted artillery shells home on the plane in their bags.

Say they had been successful. Eventually the things would wind up in a garage sale etc.

I dont collect unexpoded duds. I would never because I have no interest in it. To each their own.

I am sure you know the subject more than I ever will.

Ive just seen too many people playing around with things that go boom!

And people in the services can be dumb...

So................. No offense offered. Just my opinion.

Maybe these folks in the military that bring home unexploded ordinance

are really smart but lacking in common sense?

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About 15 years ago I bought a fired 10 pounder Parrot from Lawrence Christopher of Dalton, GA. He was a HIGHLY regarded and highly experienced dealer who had deactivated and sold many hundreds of CW shells. I was assured it was made safe and sent to me through the mail. Sadly just a couple of years later he was very badly injured when a shell he was working on exploded. Considering his reputation, I'm sure my shell is safe, but I kind of look at it with a wary eye when I think about what happened to him. As cool as it would be to think about finding a piece of ordinance in the wild, I'd probably run pretty fast if I actually did.

 

Mikie

 

Last November a collegae set down after a walk in the Groesbeek forest and stood up beacause some "thing" was poking in his behind.

 

It appeared to be a 60mm mortar, left behind and complete, only my collegae his voice cracked then. The dutch EOD took care of the 60mm.

 

We often find some "thing" when we take a walk, on many occasions it has been freshly been dug up by some metal detecting treasure seaker.

And most, allof the time i reported it, i was the first to do so.

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There is no way to sailor-proof (mistake proof) an item that is intended to blow up. Even trained EOD workers sometimes make mistakes and get killed. I was in the Military, and saw enough stupid accidents to know. Once, a shipmate dropped a live HE 5" shell. The "Silence!" command was given as it rolled across the deck, then over the side. Then a half hour later he dropped another. We called him boom-boom from then on. Were they recovered? I don't know. Also saw a crane worker almost drop an ASROC missile the size of a truck. I lived near White Sands Missile Range in the 90s, and hiked a lot. Found tons of 20mm and 40mm round sticking out of the sand. Sometimes larger parts. Others would collect them and I'm sure lots end up at gun shows, 20 years later.

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Just look at accident reports involving Soldiers and ordnance, and you’ll see that serviceman does not equal ordnance smart. And these are the same guys that bring things home or smuggle things off of a firing line because souvenirs are neat. Examples include a soldier that attempted to dissect a Hoffman device and blew off his hand. An NCO giving a class on the proper employment of a cratering charge that managed to disintegrate himself and killed several other Soldiers. Or a tank loader that set his crew on fire because he could load faster by lapping main gun rounds and disregarding hot aft-caps that were hitting the caseless round in his lap. Or the Soldier that turned his hand into a mangled mess of meat because the base of live .50 cartridge made a convenient hammer to dislodge mount pins. As a young company XO in Afghanistan I had to ask my battalion commander to stop pushing on a live PMN-1 mine. It wasn’t armed at the time but it was still live. He walked up to the ordnance demonstration led by our local EOD team, and he couldn’t resist pushing on the pressure plate without even asking what was going on. “Hey sir, please stop trying to detonate that mine. Sir, that’s a live mine, please stop pushing on it”

 

There are many, many more in the Army accident report archives. I got roped into being a Brigade safety officer a few years back and I discovered the Army has a vast archive of searchable accident reports. My point is, some folks talk as if Soldiers are somehow instilled with the knowledge to not make mistakes. I assure you, the guys that send “inert” ordnance home, remove UXO from ranges, or “relocate” live ordnance from stateside ranges are the same guys that make stupid mistakes and maim or kill themselves and others. People make mistakes. Just because someone sent something home you cannot assume it is completely safe. The advice repeated above to not mess with unfamiliar stuff that can kill you, is very sound advice.

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I bought a WW1 German "potato masher" here on the forum, around a year or so ago. It was sold as inert, and made it from overseas to my mailbox. It was a little rusty, but very much live.

 

Seriously...The grass is still dead where I emptied it out.

 

I used brass anti-sparking tools & opened it up, just enough to remove the charge. I kept water running over it as I worked, but it was still a very stupid thing to do in hindsight.

 

If you aren't sure, not only should you not buy it, but you should also not SELL it...

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Lord... I read a story a dude posted on gunboards.com about getting a live potato masher.... unscrewed the head, took care of it, and used a string to set off the fuze as attached to a distant fence post.

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I bought a WW1 German "potato masher" here on the forum, around a year or so ago. It was sold as inert, and made it from overseas to my mailbox. It was a little rusty, but very much live.

 

Seriously...The grass is still dead where I emptied it out.

 

I used brass anti-sparking tools & opened it up, just enough to remove the charge. I kept water running over it as I worked, but it was still a very stupid thing to do in hindsight.

 

If you aren't sure, not only should you not buy it, but you should also not SELL it...

Wow! I made the choice long ago not to buy demilled ordnance sight unseen for this reason. The chance of a major issue is small, but I just dont want to be on the receiving end of someone elses negligence. Amazing it made it through the postal system too. Clearly the seller has no clue what they are doing, prime example of what we are talking about in this thread.

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I think I remember seeing that grenade being listed here and I swear we asked the seller to verify it was defunct. Amazing, and good no one got hurt.

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I have a small booklet given to soldiers entering back into the US at the end of the war through Camp Kilmer

 

The booklet is all about services around the camp etc.

 

There was and office there at Kilmer for people to bring souvenirs and have them inerted

 

I imagine other ports of entry had similar, but knowing GIs I'll bet the not many took them up on it fearing that the Army would keep their treasure.

 

Merchant sailors were crazy for souvenirs and they brought all kinds of live ordnance home

 

bottom line is that it's all live until proven otherwise

Tom Bowers

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I have a small booklet given to soldiers entering back into the US at the end of the war through Camp Kilmer

 

The booklet is all about services around the camp etc.

 

There was and office there at Kilmer for people to bring souvenirs and have them inerted

 

I imagine other ports of entry had similar, but knowing GIs I'll bet the not many took them up on it fearing that the Army would keep their treasure.

 

Merchant sailors were crazy for souvenirs and they brought all kinds of live ordnance home

 

bottom line is that it's all live until proven otherwise

Tom Bowers

My point, thanks for posting. There has been some interesting " stories" posted ( keep them coming) but they all miss my point about WW2 era bring backs, not to be confused with later era, range pick ups and modern era bring backs. As a primary collector of WW2 and Korean War era stuff, I have no concern what so ever, none, with that category. Talking with many large, long, long time dealers and collectors, guess how many WW2 era live stuff they have ever found? Zero. Guess how many have been needlessly destroyed? Hundreds and hundreds were destroyed, even more ended up on some local PD's book shelf. Bottom line, familiarize yourself with the TM's. ID the item, then go from there. Happy hunting.

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Persian Gulf Command

FYI, this item is now on eBay being listed as: "Inert Non Functioning Fuse.....". I'm sure you all know the probable functionality of this M10A3.

post-17994-0-67769000-1551540689_thumb.jpg

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FYI, this item is now on eBay being listed as: "Inert Non Functioning Fuse.....". I'm sure you all know the probable functionality of this M10A3.

 

Meh, so? The M10A3 is listed as having a total of 0.003 lbs of net explosive weight, which is 0.048 ounces, which is well below the 0.25 ounce limit, therefore, not illegal.

 

Just like anything that is not illegal, but could be dangerous if misused, don't do anything stupid with it, and its perfectly fine... (Unless ATF changed the rules recently)

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Interesting post. As PZJGR posted, if a live fuze, it is not illegal to possess. The greenish sealing laquer on the fuze suggests it is live, ( a very rare find by the way),but the laquer looks fresh ( possibly an inert instructional fuze?) I have popped off more than a few of the modern M228 fuzes in a vice with 5 ft pull string and the result was loud, smokey, similar to a firecracker, but not very " destructive". The green color is consistent for an M10A3 used to set off EC blank powder filled grenades. For info, fuze sealing color for an M6 fuze for TNT filled grenades is red in color, and much more powerful.

Not enough info to definitely determine if it is in fact live, as you can not see if the striker has struck the primer. Removing the spoon to check if the spring and striker are present and exposing the primer would answer a lot of questions. That should be done by someone who is familiar with the striker mechanism. Thanks for posting.

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Back in the 80’s had a friend that worked for the State Department, often sent to France for work. He was a huge WWI collector, went around France looking for WWI ORD. He tried to take a week vacation when he was there to “ enhance” his collection. After a year or so he met a retired French army EOD sgt. that demilled all kinds of found UXO. They became good friends as the former EOD guy demilled literally tons of UXO. Sometime in the 90’s this friend returned to France, went to the town where the EOD guy lived. He went in the local bar and asked about the EOD guy. He said everone removed their hats and told him he was no longer with them, all they found were the soles of his shoes.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think I remember seeing that grenade being listed here and I swear we asked the seller to verify it was defunct. Amazing, and good no one got hurt.

 

That was the one! Its completely inert at this point, but it was 100% live when it arrived. The pull cord had deteriorated over the years, and only a few inches remained, hidden inside the handle. So at least it couldn't have been pulled.

Just goes to show, a lot of stuff can make it through the mail. Let's just hope the bad guys in the world don't have that kind of luck in the future...

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