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Buyer safety for Ordnance Collecting


AdamD1776
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AdamD1776

I am relatively new to collecting, and had a safety question. When buying ordnance, how do you determine if it is inert/safe? I realize that this varies piece by piece, and some will be more obvious than others (say a grenade body with no fuse for example), but in general, what are some ways of checking? Or, what are some stories of pieces that didn't feel right, or ended up being live?

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ludwigh1980

My experience is that if you are not familiar with what you are buying don't mess with it. I know of one case where a major dealer was selling Spanish American War artillery rounds that were thought to be inert. When they were received by the buyer (after shipping), they were found to be still live. They were sold as "dummy" training rounds. A lot more militaria including ordinance is starting to show up at yards sales, estate sales, etc. A couple of months ago I came across a live antitank round at an estate sale that had been sitting on a table and had been played with by children. It was promptly removed from the sale. Found some live grenade fuses that were in an antique shop for sale a couple of years ago. After being in the Army and working with a little bit of ordinance, I generally just stay away from most of it. I do like grenades however I am familiar with the ones I collect. These items are nothing to mess around with live stuff does turn up. Even civil war shells have caused deaths in recent years. So much more to collect. I myself favor moth food (wool uniforms).

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Garandomatic

I have read from more knowledgeable people that Japanese grenades in particular are full of picric acid/picritol, which crystallizes and becomes pretty shock sensitive. A fellow here stated that unscrewing the plug or what have on one of theirs is enough to set off the picric acid that leaches into the threads over the decades. Anything with that stuff is to be avoided!

 

I do wonder if unscrewing the fuze on a WWII pineapple would be risky or not. From what I have read, their explosive and fuze material are not the type that become volatile with age, but I would genuinely like to listen to anybody that has more authority than I on the subject.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As an EOD Tech, I offer my 2 cents. There is no way to ensure what your buying is 100% inert. You may buy a projectile that is empty with a fuze. The main booster of the fuze made gone, but there are fuzes that have/use explosives to arm in the function cycle in order to detonate the booster. There are organizations that inert ordnance items for training aids. There are people that inert ordnance in their shops. Even ordnance that is produced by the manufacture and is painted blue and labeled as a "Trainer" is not always inert. BDU-33 is a good example. It has a cartridge in the nose that ejects a 3 foot flame on impact that gives "visual feed back" to the pilots. There is no real way to know if the cart is gone or not. So on range clearance ops, we would get the measurement from the publication and mark a coat hanger and bend it at 90 degrees to check. If the coat hanger went in past the mark, the cart functioned. (don't do this at home, seen one initiate from the coat hanger check. Thats why we have the 90 degree bend!) Again I am going down a rabbit hole. Bottom line is there is no "standard" for ordnance inerting. Here is why. Its complicated. The best way to describe it is chain of custody. A collector buys a piece of ordnance from WWI. Who did the inerting? Did they do it right? Who owned since you bought it? Did someone try to modify it? And so on and so on. Explosives function similar to fires. They need certain things to happen before the function as designed. Explosives need heat, shock, and friction. So with the Japanese ordnance, a lot were made with picrictol, the unscrewing of the fuze can in the right situation cause a small detonation. Picric Aicd, the main component in picritol is not very stable and was extensively used as a "yellow" clothing dye. The properties of the explosive causes the growth of crystals, which are very volatile. All explosives deteriorate over time. Bottom line after all this. No way to tell 100% and blue is not always safe. I have been called out to check ordnance found by police. We (EOD) can neither confirm or deny if an item is "safe" or "inert" for liability reasons.

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As noted, there is no one catch all list of what to look for.

 

One thing is not to assume just because it was in grandpa's attic or barn for the last 60 years means that the item is safe.

 

Apparently some GI's from WWI onward were not entirely skilled or perhaps caring in making sure their souvenirs were inert.

 

I remember being a teenager in the 1970's and walking into an antique shop in central Pennsylvania and asking if they had any military antiques. The owner motioned over to some brass artillery rounds that were sitting on a table. I picked up a 40mm that had the projectile still mounted. I about froze in my tracks. Just by the weight of it I knew it was still loaded with the propellant charge and was live. To make matters worse, it was corroding from improper storage around the projectile end. I very gingerly placed it back on the table, told the owner it was live and despite the price tag should be disposed of, walked for the door and shut it very gingerly behind me. (Of course the table with the shell was right next to the door!)

 

And you will find dozens of stories like that.

 

One issue I've commented on, we seem to have repeated questions about live smoke and CS (tear gas) grenades. Vietnam gear collectors in particular seem to be obsessed with having these in their displays. While not designed to explode, they still have a heat, fire, and smoke hazard. Looking at sales ads, it is sometimes hard to tell if the canister has been fired and repainted or is still in its original primed form; or whether it is an original or reproduction.

 

I guess my best advice would be to link up someone who could be your mentor. As stated above, don't mess with things you have not been trained on. Ordnance was designed to kill and maim, and it can do that years after it was fielded. If you can't find someone to talk you through it, read as much as you can on the internet.

 

With that said, even the experts get fooled. This is an example of a well regarded Civil War ordnance collector often cited in the collecting world as a cautionary tale of what can go wrong:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/05/02/virginia-man-killed-in-civil-war-cannonball-blast.html

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Thanks for all the input. I will definitely be doing a lot of research before making any purchases. Any other advice is greatly appreciated.

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Can anyone point me towards some good reference materials to learn about the different ordnance types, and what to look for?

 

Thanks!

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One of the best overall US Ordnance references is going to b Technical Manual 9-1900, TM 9-1900....very good overview...

 

The other must have is TM 9-1904, Ammunition Inspection Guide.....

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Thanks, I will try and get copies of both!

One of the best overall US Ordnance references is going to b Technical Manual 9-1900, TM 9-1900....very good overview...

 

The other must have is TM 9-1904, Ammunition Inspection Guide.....

 

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Try to get a later edition, 1950's, 60's....

 

Another more modern good one to get is:

 

TM 43-0001-28...

 

They are very detailed with fillers, fuzes, whether an AP round is filled and has a base fuze...etc...

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Ok, I found a PDF of TM 9-1904, and have been perusing it. Based on my quick glance at the manual, it does not appear to say whether it is safe to remove a fuse from a projectile or not. Am I missing something?

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Its not going to tell you, that will be based on how likely the projectile might be live, what the filler is, how its been stored, etc, etc...

 

If you don't have a good idea of what you are doing, when in doubt, leave it alone...

 

But the info you can glean is what type of fuze it is, and how it functions...

 

Most fuzes have to be fired for it to arm itself to detonate the filler...but some, like on the Navy 20mm WWII Oerlikon were simple impact...now those, if you dropped it from high enough, or hit it hard enough, they could go off

 

Its not stuff to mess with if you aren't confident...

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Okay, that's what I was wondering. I don't plan on messing with anything I'm not confident with, and hopefully never run into anything that's live. Thanks for all the help!

Its not going to tell you, that will be based on how likely the projectile might be live, what the filler is, how its been stored, etc, etc...

 

If you don't have a good idea of what you are doing, when in doubt, leave it alone...

 

But the info you can glean is what type of fuze it is, and how it functions...

 

Most fuzes have to be fired for it to arm itself to detonate the filler...but some, like on the Navy 20mm WWII Oerlikon were simple impact...now those, if you dropped it from high enough, or hit it hard enough, they could go off

 

Its not stuff to mess with if you aren't confident...

 

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  • 8 months later...

There is no way to tell for sure. Even inert ordnance can have hazardous components. Example are the inert Mk 80 series bombs that are painted blue. But they have a CXU 3 spotting charge (I believe its the CXU 3)that gives the pilot feed back if he is close to the target. US ordnance is "generally" safer than foreign ordnance. We build in safeties to protect the user, but other countries don't. This why we have an exceptable dud rate and other countries don't care. They just want it to work! I have been in EOD over 25 years and I still get nervous dealing with old ordnance. Other issues to consider is the main charge. Remnants of explosives become more unstable over time. The three things need for a detonation is Heat, Shock, and friction. The "explosive salts" formed over time can seep into fuze wells, unscrewing the fuze can cause enough heat, shock, and friction to cause a detonation. I still get nervous cause we have a saying in EOD. It goes, "God protects children and idiots", I am not a kid. LOL!<br /><br />Smitty

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Interesting topic. It has prompted me to reply. I will not comment on the advice given as I agree partly with only a few bits. I will start by saying I know of more harmless ordnance destroyed because of ignorance-( eg, call the police on grandpas 75mm Sherman tank round found in the attic- usuall protocol is blow it up- period, no common sense), but Here goes. Your chance of finding an Ordnance piece post WW2 fully loaded and charged approach winning the mega lottery. The odds get even tougher with WW1-WW2 dated ordnance. Do you really think the bulk of serviceman that brought home souveneers were dumb? Let's start with grenades, shells prior to 1945, bulk loaded with EC flash powder, later flaked TNT, both which could be easily removed by shaking, scraping out. I have no concerns what so ever with pre 1945 bring backs. None. Sitting propping the door open for 80 years not detonating means it will go another 80 years without exploding. Here is the difference, post 45 Explosive filler was poured warm and filled shells making deactivation harder. It has to be cooked out in an oven to be rendered harmless. Heat kills all modern day fillers.That is why more modern era ordnance is harder to find. Beware, some training shells were filled with plaster, grey/red filler to give the proper weight. If you find one, chip out a small piece and see if it burns, ( smell it to), if it does maybe you have a live round, but in 20 years all filled US shells I have found were filled with an inert substance.secondly, pull up the TM and weigh the round if really in doubt. I can go on, and maybe my thoughts are stirring emotions, but emotions and ignorance have been responsible for thousands of historical pieces being needlessly destroyed ( without compensation).

Fire away.

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This has been a very informative thread, and I would like to see it continue.

 

Our standards for behavior on here are for discussion and exchange of information, not confrontation.

 

No one should be having their "emotions stirred", nor has anyone destroyed any historical pieces out of "ignorance". We can encourage a continued discussion without provoking phrases like "fire away".

 

Let's all keep the discussion at a professional level so that it can continue for everyone's benefit.

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Your chance of finding an Ordnance piece post WW2 fully loaded and charged approach winning the mega lottery. The odds get even tougher with WW1-WW2 dated ordnance. Do you really think the bulk of serviceman that brought home souvenirs were dumb?

 

 

I am going to respectfully disagree with you on two counts.

 

While the majority of servicemen were probably very smart about what they brought home (and most of them properly screened and supervised) you'd be surprised what some of them have managed to sneak home from WWI to the present day.

 

Live ordnance is out there. I've seen it and touched it. Where it came from, who owned it, and how it ever escaped government control one can only guess. There is every possibility you can think of.

 

For example, as a kid I had cousins in Delaware that were playing with friends in their afternoon. Some of the soil had washed away in their modern, 1970's housing development, and the kids found some odd shaped objects. I can't remember whether they brought one home or whether they were smart enough to bring an adult out to see what they were looking at. It turns out they were a number of live 40mm rounds. The development had been built on the site of a former ammunition plant and this had been some sort of dumping ground. These were destroyed, especially since having been in the ground so long they were not in the best of condition.

 

Another example is one of my trading partners was once offered a case of live "WWII" hand grenades. Of course, he chose to call me on the phone to tell me this. I very clearly advised him to walk away from the deal, both from a safety and a legal standpoint.

 

So this stuff does show up. The best advice is in post #2 above: "My experience is that if you are not familiar with what you are buying don't mess with it." I'd like to think we all agree it takes some time to learn what you need to know. Some of the information in this article is a good starting point.

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Gil posted an excellent point regarding ORD found in the ground. Consider the number of developments being built on or near WWII training areas. Friends in another state( very experienced in ORD.) metal detect on property that was on training grounds, have amazing collections from 8”,155, 105 to MKII’s, all dewatted. Thankfully they get called by local LEO to “ dispose” of most items found. Experience is the best teacher, if you dont know or have someone that does, leave it alone.

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This has been a very informative thread, and I would like to see it continue.

 

Our standards for behavior on here are for discussion and exchange of information, not confrontation.

 

No one should be having their "emotions stirred", nor has anyone destroyed any historical pieces out of "ignorance". We can encourage a continued discussion without provoking phrases like "fire away".

 

Let's all keep the discussion at a professional level so that it can continue for everyone's benefit.

No offense was intended. Every ordnance collector has stories and opinions to tell ( I do not personally know of any fatalities - first hand). I am sure they do occur once in a blue moon which is why I am posting some additional information that I look for. My observations are for WW1 and post ordnance.

- Range pick ups , suspected pick ups, evidence of being dug up, evidence of being fired ( duds) usually have rifling imprinted on the driving band, dirt in the fuze, powder stains, rusty. These I consider as the truest hazard. If not AP, blue colored rounds, or known practice rounds ( read the TM) make a positive ID.

-Making a positive ID does not mean calling your local PD, they will take it and supposedly destroy it with out question (my local PD has a few sitting on their officers shelves- they never were destroyed).

-Fuzes, again, get the numbers off the fuze and make a positive ID with the TM. Many modern era fuzes have been ink marked, and it has been polished off. I consider fuzes ranked least of hazards, simple weighing can be used ( as with all ordnance) but keep in mind if mis handled live ones can remove limbs.

- Projectiles, get the " M" or " T" number engraved in the body, make a positive ID with the TM, then you can decide what you are dealing with ( HE, Illum, WP, AP, practice, training, etc..).If you see a " SS" stamped into the projectile it is SAFE STEEL, totally harmless. If you see " Inert" same. Yuma testing literally has tons laying around and stamped millions with SS ( inert). If you see no markings at all, it is a factory reject ( failed dimensional inspection) used for war bond drives, employee gifts , trade shows, etc...

-Note coloring, blue, black, white, etc....Is it a repaint? Remember this, important! Loaded projectiles ( live) were ink marked only when filled... Eg, " 155G, TNT, Lot 1237, Shell, M1, ..ink marked yellow lot number is the date of explosive filler, not the same lot number engraved in the shell which is casting lot number of the body.

- Something I have to mention, being in the service ( as many here have) and getting to play with a lot of ordnance, I know how to use and handle grenades, certain mortars, mines,... live ones I do not even consider a hazard ( don't get riled up) in trained hands as they all have safety devices, pins, and have sat in nice crates and containers for years without incident. That said, Federal law prohibits possession of HE explosives and certain quantities of low grade explosives which means long jail time.

- This is a very, very general info post that can go on and on, and our EOD men can add volumes. Do keep in mind they deal with " the real deal daily", usually found overseas and verified UXO found on ranges. US ordnance has been tightly, tightly controlled post Korea era, so all modern era ordnance on the market always casts initial suspicion. Original Inert modern era ordnance always has inert inked or painted. So much to still cover, and so many different "opinions" offered up from many different viewpoints, none should be discounted. If you are not willing to actively learn about ordnance, do not collect it ( more for us collectors). If you find grand paws inert 75mm Sherman AP round in the attic,( grand paw GI was most likely smarter than you) ,do your absolute best in identifying it before panicking and calling your local PD. Just my 2C ( opinion).

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There is no way to tell for sure. Even inert ordnance can have hazardous components. Example are the inert Mk 80 series bombs that are painted blue. But they have a CXU 3 spotting charge (I believe its the CXU 3)that gives the pilot feed back if he is close to the target. US ordnance is "generally" safer than foreign ordnance. We build in safeties to protect the user, but other countries don't. This why we have an exceptable dud rate and other countries don't care. They just want it to work! I have been in EOD over 25 years and I still get nervous dealing with old ordnance. Other issues to consider is the main charge. Remnants of explosives become more unstable over time. The three things need for a detonation is Heat, Shock, and friction. The "explosive salts" formed over time can seep into fuze wells, unscrewing the fuze can cause enough heat, shock, and friction to cause a detonation. I still get nervous cause we have a saying in EOD. It goes, "God protects children and idiots", I am not a kid. LOL!<br /><br />Smitty

 

Close! BDU-45s use the Mk 4 spotting cartridge. The CXU-3 is used by smaller practice bombs like the Mk 76, BDU-33, Mk 4, etc... Great info, though, thanks for your comments!

 

Semper Fi,

 

Ski

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Thought about whilst looking at lots and lots of parrot projectiles at a recent cw show.

About 15 years ago I bought a fired 10 pounder Parrot from Lawrence Christopher of Dalton, GA. He was a HIGHLY regarded and highly experienced dealer who had deactivated and sold many hundreds of CW shells. I was assured it was made safe and sent to me through the mail. Sadly just a couple of years later he was very badly injured when a shell he was working on exploded. Considering his reputation, I'm sure my shell is safe, but I kind of look at it with a wary eye when I think about what happened to him. As cool as it would be to think about finding a piece of ordinance in the wild, I'd probably run pretty fast if I actually did.

 

Mikie

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