WWII D.S.C. ... Is it correct?

[MattS]

Nothing on Ancestry I will keep check other resources!

 

Nothing on fold3 either.

 

[Orion27]

So, any ideas where the tunic is now?

[Orion27]

For a bit of a comparison of the brooch, naming, number, case of DeGenaro's D.S.C. with another known 1943 action Air Corps D.S.C. here is Nathan Bedford Forrest III's D.S.C. that was sold by eMedals and is in their archive.

 

DeGenaro's D.S.C. was announced in General Order 58 of 1943.

Forrest's D.S.C. was announced in General Order 63 of September 1943.

 

DeGenaro's is numbered 10462.

Forrest's is numbered 10936.

[Orion27]

DeGenaro's DSC, slot brooch, named "August De Genaro"

Forrest's DSC, slot brooch, named "Nathan B. Forrest"

[Orion27]

Forrest's Reverse

[Orion27]

DeGenaro's case.

[Orion27]

Forrest's case.

[Orion27]

The listing on eMedals says that Forrest's family was presented with his DSC in 1949 when his body was buried at Arlington.

 

A book on the 8th Air Force makes it clear that DeGenaro was presented with a DSC in his hospital bed.

 

Was it this one or another unnamed and unnumbered one? Did he receive this named and numbered one in 1949-ish too? The close date of the two awards (DeGenaro's being a bit earlier) and the close proximity of the numbers on both crosses (Degenaro's being a bit lower) is interesting but is it relevant?

[Allan H.]

For clarification- Forrest's DSC is numbered, but has been married to a Robbins contract black brooch drape. When I had De Genero's DSC, it did not come with the case.

 

Allan

[Orion27]

No case when you had it? Or different one?

[Orion27]

No photo yet, but here's his signature. This is from a 78th Fighter Group "Intelligence Combat Report" from June 13, 1943. De Genaro is substantiating the claimed victory of Lt. Hogman on that date. This was a month and a day before his DSC action. The Military Times Hall of Valor site says that De Genaro was also credited with shooting down one enemy aircraft in aerial combat on July 10, 1943.

[Dave]

The listing on eMedals says that Forrest's family was presented with his DSC in 1949 when his body was buried at Arlington.

 

A book on the 8th Air Force makes it clear that DeGenaro was presented with a DSC in his hospital bed.

 

Was it this one or another unnamed and unnumbered one? Did he receive this named and numbered one in 1949-ish too? The close date of the two awards (DeGenaro's being a bit earlier) and the close proximity of the numbers on both crosses (Degenaro's being a bit lower) is interesting but is it relevant?

 

 

 

A few points in reply...

 

Forrest's DSC is hand engraved, and is what I would expect from an award of that time period (particularly a late 1940's award that is a Robbins contract). It is 100% correct and had I had the cash at the time that group was available, I would have been delighted to add that one to my collection.

 

DeGennaro's DSC is machine engraved with engraving seen starting with the Korean War (I have seen a handful of hand-engraved Korean War examples; the majority were machine engraved). I have never seen a machine engraved DSC that was awarded during WW2 (I'm hoping that in saying "never" that one will come out of the woodwork!)

 

There was an option in the 50s and 60s for veterans to get their awards engraved by the government, but I've never seen an award group where the veteran returned their awards for engraving. Not saying it didn't happen...just saying I've not seen one with the paper trail that would come with doing something like that (yes, I would definitely geek out to see a group like that, for sure!!!)

 

What I've seen multiple times is a family or the veteran requesting a second set of awards to replace ones that were lost, misplaced, stolen, etc. I've also seen several complete re-issue medal groups that were issued, named, either for the person's retirement or upon their death while on active duty (both KIA as well as accident/natural causes).

 

As far as the numbering on the medal, it's largely irrelevant. By the time these were awarded, groups of numbered medals ended up in this location, that location...and when they were engraved and presented, they were done with no regard to the number. I have seen numbered DSCs awarded all the way up into the Vietnam War.

 

It's based on these points that I made my initial comments about DeGennaro's medal being a 1950s or even 1960s reissue example. I would bet money that he had his original DSC and this one, which is probably why this one was given to his nephew along with the Ike jacket (why have two of them?) He (and/or his family) may not have even known this one was named (visiting multiple Gold Star families, I have been very surprised by the number who had no idea the person's name was engraved on the reverse of the medal...) This is also why I am not excited nor desire to read anything negative into the motives of the seller (who I don't know) when it comes to the BIN price of the DSC...it's a replacement award, and those do not bring the same value as an originally awarded medal.

 

Hope that helps bring some light to the subject!

 

Dave

[MattS]

Thanks for your insight, Dave. I guess this means his original WW2 DSC could still be with the family.

 

So, where did the uniform go that left the family with this DSC? Why were they split up? In his original post, Belleauwood shows the DSC in a case, but Allan says it didn't come with one. Where did it go? Orion27 doesn't have it and is asking the same questions I'm sure.

[Wharfmaster]

Here is a 1945 Requisition For Engraving that came with an unnamed Air Medal and the man's dog tags.

 

I assume he didn't bother forwarding it for engraving.

 

 

Wharf

[Dave]

Just to point out a clarification on my above post...as far as Forrest's DSC, it was pointed out to me that Robbins contract pieces were not numbered, and this one has a Robbins brooch with a numbered planchet...so the planchet and brooch must have been mated together at some point in their lives. Regardless, the engraving is still 100% correct and I'd still be happy to have that group in my collection.

 

Wharf - thanks for posting that document! That's the first I've seen for having the recipient send the medal in for engraving. Too bad he didn't so as to provide the rest of the paper trail!

[Orion27]

Still a lot to figure out here...

 

1. Where's the jacket?

 

2. Has the person that procured it from Allan made contact with anyone?

 

3. Does the family still have other objects?

 

4. The case ... it came with one from ebay and seems to be period (same lettering as the Forrest case). Dave didn't have one with it. The original post from 2011 has a case, it looks similar to mine but on close inspection, the lettering is different. (Note the "T" and "G" in the original post). Why/How has this happened?

 

5. One thing I'm certain of is that the medal I have is the same one from the 2011 post. (Naming, numbering, patina, ribbon folds, stitching and brooch are exactly the same).

 

6. Numbering ... So its just coincidence that Forrest and DeGenaro are both mid-1943, European Theater, Air Corps D.S.C.'s, DeGenaro's being earned just slightly earlier and also numbered just slightly lower?

 

7. Are the un-named but numbered later D.S.C.'s people have seen (Korea or even Vietnam) ever in the 10,000 number range? The unnamed and numbered D.S.C.s from WWII (or at least that are advertised as WWII medals) seem to often be in the 20000+ range.

 

I am going to contact the New Haven Historical Society (where he was living at the time) to see if they might have a picture. I am also going to (delicately) ask the ebay seller a few questions. That Requisition for Engraving form is very interesting.

[Wharfmaster]

Just to point out a clarification on my above post...as far as Forrest's DSC, it was pointed out to me that Robbins contract pieces were not numbered, and this one has a Robbins brooch with a numbered planchet...so the planchet and brooch must have been mated together at some point in their lives. Regardless, the engraving is still 100% correct and I'd still be happy to have that group in my collection.

 

Wharf - thanks for posting that document! That's the first I've seen for having the recipient send the medal in for engraving. Too bad he didn't so as to provide the rest of the paper trail!

 

Thanks Dave.

 

Had my man sent his Air Medal to the Chicago QM Depot for naming, it would probably look like this:

[Allan H.]

I have to correct myself. The De Gernero DSC DID come with the case that Orion has. The two creases in the lid match the photos that I have of the group. I was mistaken.

 

Allan

[MattS]

That's for clarifying that, Allan.

[Orion27]

I did some number crunching on this D.S.C. using the "Home of Heroes" website:

 

WW2 Army Air Corps DSCs = 762

 

WW2 Army Air Corps European Theatre Fighter Pilot DSCs = 118

 

WW2 Army Air Corps European Theatre Fighter Pilot DSCs in 1943: 15 (88 in 1944; 22 in 1945)

 

DeGenaro's July 14, 1943 DSC was the THIRD AAC DSC of the European Theatre.

 

 

1st --> May 1943 = Lt. Col. Chelsey Peterson (8th Air Force) - very generic citation.

2nd --> June 10, 1943 = 1st Lt. Paul McArthur (9th Air Force) - Shot down 4 German planes (in a P-40).

3rd --> July 14, 1943 = DEGENARO

4th --> July 30, 1943 = First European Theatre ACE.

[Orion27]

Several people have mentioned that DeGenaro's citation seems MOH material. (Downing three planes and then piloting the plane with his elbows back to England and rather than bail out over land and risk the plane then smashing into a village he bailed out over water at the risk of drowning and had to bash his way out of the canopy to jump at all!) In July 1943 there had only been one European Air Corps MOH (to a bomber pilot) and none to a fighter pilot. I wonder if the fact that he was born in an enemy country (Italy) made him, politically, not the best choice for a 1st Fighter Pilot MOH?

 

Just speculating.

[Dave]

Several people have mentioned that DeGenaro's citation seems MOH material. (Downing three planes and then piloting the plane with his elbows back to England and rather than bail out over land and risk the plane then smashing into a village he bailed out over water at the risk of drowning and had to bash his way out of the canopy to jump at all!) In July 1943 there had only been one European Air Corps MOH (to a bomber pilot) and none to a fighter pilot. I wonder if the fact that he was born in an enemy country (Italy) made him, politically, not the best choice for a 1st Fighter Pilot MOH?

 

Just speculating.

 

Medals of Honor are extremely political. They also have a very high requirement for witnesses of the action. The fact he didn't receive one could be anything from the fact that someone might not have liked him, or perhaps they were trying to get someone else a MOH (I didn't check if anyone else in his squadron or group earned an MOH at the same time), or any other number of reasons. As far as the witness requirement, the action requires the witness statements of at least two US citizens (the reason why COL Ripley didn't get one in Vietnam...even though his heroism was observed by dozens of SVN troops...) so there's a good chance that since he was flying alone (as the book excerpt below seems to indicate) at the time of his action, that he didn't reach the witness criteria. Back to the political aspect...not everyone always had two witnesses (think of the USAAF guys who were KIA and earned MOHs posthumously...) so it revolves around the idea that requirements can get waived...if it's politically expedient to do so.

 

Clear as mud!

[Dave]

And here's the book excerpt, from https://books.google.com/books?id=14bvCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT36&lpg=PT36&dq=august+de+genero&source=bl&ots=wc8MwFvTzC&sig=VX0G5JQDVq49WlG67jRjs3y5U7s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3spqAv7_aAhXHz1MKHZfTDrwQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage&q=august%20de%20genero&f=false

[KASTAUFFER]

Just as an example of how numbers are " clear as mud" , I have a documented traceable DSC in the 4000 range ( made for WWI but not awarded then ) presented in 1943 to an AAF officer in North Africa. The # is noted in the GO and the DSC is hand engraved to him. The naming was done in North Africa prior to presentation in the field.

 

If you saw this medal you would swear it was issued in 1918.

 

Kurt

[Orion27]

Just picked up a nice 1st Edition of "Duxford Diary 1942-1945". This is where DeGenaro was stationed. The book includes a detailed retelling of his ordeal. Sadly no picture though.

 

I also have been in contact with the Newhaven (England) Historic Society. This is the town that DeGenaro "saved" by ditching in the channel. They have the propeller of a

P-47 in the museum that was found on the beach by 3 school boys in 1975. There were two crashes of P-47s in the area during the war. It is impossible to say which one this propeller came from. I have asked for a picture. I will post if I get it.