Navy and Marine Corps Medal on Ebay

[Hobza]

Medal is SOLD for 2999.....

[Dave]

Medal is SOLD for 2999.....

 

 

Ouch.

 

Two things will now happen:

 

1. The person who bought it will do some internet research to find out about Hugh Rossman Alexander and will discover this thread. They will then return the medal for a refund to the seller.

 

Or

 

2. The person who bought it, will get it, put in their collection and be happy with the knowledge that they believe they own Hugh R. Alexander's medal. It will reside in their collection for years and down the road, they might try to sell it. Someone will point out that it's fake engraving and they'll refuse to believe it. After all, "I bought that medal 20 years ago!"

 

It will be interesting to see how it goes!

 

Dave

[vicjoy1945]

If memory serves me correctly, the OMSA journal featured a beautifully engraved NMCM medal on its cover many moons ago. Drop dead gorgeous medal...

[Raidercollector]

You think the Seller will offer him the PH. And he will get double wacked.???

The member on here has not come forward who was selling it a few years ago.

[FFZFlyer]

I stand with those who view this as an outstanding engraving job. Official or unofficial, whoever did this engraving did a fantastic job. I find it to be quite attractive and I could see how a collector who had the dinaro's would drop them on this piece because it is very, very nice looking piece and, hence, very desirable.

 

Having said that, and believing that it is not "official" U.S. Navy World War II engraving, I'm going to say that one of the major tip-offs that this is "non-official" is the use of the date format

MM-DD-YY. On the rare occasions when dates are incorporated into the more extensive engraving formats, usually the format is DD/MONTH/YYYY, as 7 December 1941. Sometimes the month will be abbreviated. The only exception I can find is the engraving on Coastguardman Munro's MoH which uses a really unusual format for the date of action - M-DD, YYYY. Thus Munro's piece displays 9-27, 1942. Really unconventional and the only example I could find. My archives are not that extensive, to be sure, but others here may be able to confirm or deny the assumption that an engraving that includes the date format as shown on this NMCM are not "official" engraving.

 

There is also the possibility that the actual recipient of the award, the NOK, could have been given an unengraved presentation piece and later had it privately engraved. If the documentation was all in proper order it would be a very, very nice addition to a collection.

[Schofield1943]

^^^

 

Here's an example from the Pearl Harbor PHs thread showing the date 12-7-41

 

[Pete-o MSU]

I stand with those who view this as an outstanding engraving job. Official or unofficial, whoever did this engraving did a fantastic job. I find it to be quite attractive and I could see how a collector who had the dinaro's would drop them on this piece because it is very, very nice looking piece and, hence, very desirable.

 

Having said that, and believing that it is not "official" U.S. Navy World War II engraving, I'm going to say that one of the major tip-offs that this is "non-official" is the use of the date format

MM-DD-YY. On the rare occasions when dates are incorporated into the more extensive engraving formats, usually the format is DD/MONTH/YYYY, as 7 December 1941. Sometimes the month will be abbreviated. The only exception I can find is the engraving on Coastguardman Munro's MoH which uses a really unusual format for the date of action - M-DD, YYYY. Thus Munro's piece displays 9-27, 1942. Really unconventional and the only example I could find. My archives are not that extensive, to be sure, but others here may be able to confirm or deny the assumption that an engraving that includes the date format as shown on this NMCM are not "official" engraving.

 

There is also the possibility that the actual recipient of the award, the NOK, could have been given an unengraved presentation piece and later had it privately engraved. If the documentation was all in proper order it would be a very, very nice addition to a collection.

Not trying to argue, but I think this piece was done by a well known fake engraver. To be honest, I dont think the engraver is the faker, but someone paid an engraver with some talent to do these fakes. It is my opinion also that the medals this engraver did may have been done from pictures of the original medals, as they often try to mimic the embellishments of known real WWII medals. I have 4-5 pictures of examples of work this engraver has done. I dont want to openly post them, as I dont know who the current owners are. You can pm me and I will send you what photos I have.

 

Pete

[Pete-o MSU]

What helped with this medal getting by is how rare NMCMs are. Not many guys have seen a lot good examples. I saw 3 officially engraved examples at the SOS two years ago and I thought the sky was falling.

[manayunkman]

A well known faker who isn't the faker?

 

Please help me wrap my head around that statement.

 

Who are they?

 

The person who faked this medal is way way way better than most official WW2 engravers.

 

They are extremely dangerous so why not out them?

[Pete-o MSU]

I meant I dont think the engraver is the mastermind.

 

I bet someone found a good engraver and just had him make some copies from pictures.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

When I get home from work I will resize the pics and make a good thread for everybody.

[manayunkman]

So who is well known the engraver or master mind?

[KASTAUFFER]

The person I am thinking of asked for photos of named medals back in the 1980's ( and I sent him photos too ) to use in a book he was going to write. The book never materialized, however fake named medals did including Civil War MOHs. Yes folks, unnamed Civil War MOHs did exist. The fakes originated out of Detroit.

 

 

Kurt

[vicjoy1945]

^^^ Pretty sure I know who you are referencing Kurt !!

[jweitkamp]

This NMC medal engraving looks very similar to that on the Air Medal attributed to David Puckett pictured on pg 58 of Dave Schwind's

"Red Stars" book. Any chance this was legitimately privately engraved during the period?

[Dave]

This NMC medal engraving looks very similar to that on the Air Medal attributed to David Puckett pictured on pg 58 of Dave Schwind's

"Red Stars" book. Any chance this was legitimately privately engraved during the period?

 

It is very close to the posthumous Air Medals (Puckett was a POW, but MIA when that AM was awarded) engraving of the time (there are many more in my next book!) However, as far as this one being a vintage engraved example, I'd say no. Especially with the Purple Heart being very fake...and both being in the same "hand" as the well-known engraver...these are solidly in the "fake, made to deceive" category.

 

I have tried to track down the veteran's daughter, but no luck so far. I'd LOVE to see the actual awards. Incidentally, her husband (his son in law) was KIA in Vietnam as a Navy pilot. If I have any luck, I will, of course, update it in this thread.

[jmpmstr]

Ill pose a question just to stir the pot more but also legitimately asking. Im not sure what Id do if faced with this scenario with an extremely rare piece. I know I wouldnt do it for this type piece but heres my question.

Would you buy this or any piece you wanted with faked engraving, knowing the medal itself was period? Yes this medal sold way high based on the faked attribution, but suppose it didnt and could be had on the cheap as a result. Does the faked engraving ruin the prospect of an example for your collection IF having it is more important than the engraving, and the price of a good non engraved one was still too high for you?

 

Just something I struggled with years ago when I couldnt afford to buy higher ed or scarce medals.

 

Im interested in the discussion, not in starting a philosophical argument. I would not necessarily buy a faked medal now because I dont have to.

[jmpmstr]

As a very young collector this medal was out of reach both in price and availability. They just didnt come up, eBay was not the juggernaut it is today, and I couldnt afford them at the time. Was not able to get to shows with regularity. So if this came up and was below market because of the engraving but the medal itself was right, I would have bought it for the parts...which is a medal.

[Jim T]

" Vee get too soon olt, und too late schmart. "

 

...........

 

Anthony: Interesting and familiar question you pose. In my opinion when we are new to something - and especially when we're young - desire reigns and we may also not have the knowledge and contacts to guide us so we have a tendency to jump in. As we age and mature we get more selective; and we have more experts to bounce things off (as in: this forum). The Navy & Marine Corps medal, for its all its simplicity, is quite an impressive medal: it has its own cache (JFK. PT-109 sliced in half on a night patrol, towing an injured crewman to safety, message on a coconut, etc). This particular one, given its correct characteristics, and with alleged provenance to the strike on Pearl Harbor could make even a journeyman enthusiast press the ​​BIN button. To answer your question though: no, even for the right price, i would pass [but thats the now me]. But i am too olt to jump; not quite olt as dirt though. i've made those mistakes and learned from them. I mention elsewhere here (and repeat now to give you all a laugh) my acquisition of MNo. Navy and Marine Civil War and China Boxer campaigns directly from Mr. Studley at the 1963 OMSA convention (well, through my father since i was underage). We knew nothing and had no mentors; but we were ecstatic just to acquire them. By the 1964 convention we knew better and keyed on real pieces (thanks to Ron Shepherd, a former OMSA director whom we befriended and who a couple of people here may have had the pleasure to have known); the MNo's then became "fillers" until the real deal came along. Again: this illustrates the need for forums like this and conventions/shows if you can get to them. A second war story more to your point (i'll try to make it quick) is about a high Navy decoration which came on the market as part of a collection acquired by a local coin dealer near here in late 1964/early 1965 (probably a "walk in"). A 100% correct, official strike but naming questioned by everyone who saw it; we couldn't get an answer if it was faked. I mean George Menegaux, an super-advanced collector just would not say. Yes, we plunked down the money - an advance on my paper route - and enjoyed the fact that at least it was an official strike. Decades later, after pulling his file from the archives, there appeared no mention of his requesting a duplicate so that angle was investigated. BUT: $175 divided by half a century+ of enjoyment = no complaints.

 

Bottom line? If it feels good, push BIN.