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Italian 82nd woven?


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Just thinking about units that would have been in the MTO. Seems the 82nd would have been a given. I find it unusual there would be "war-time" produced 17th AB woven Italian made patches but not 82nd. At least two on the bay right now.

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I personally think the 17th Airborne patches often attributed to Italy were actually made in Germany...

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Just thinking about units that would have been in the MTO. Seems the 82nd would have been a given. I find it unusual there would be "war-time" produced 17th AB woven Italian made patches but not 82nd. At least two on the bay right now.

 

The 82nd was in Sicily for one month (Jul 43-Aug 43)...left Sicily for N Africa and the 504th was in Italy Sept 43 - Mar 44.

 

That's why learning div hx is important. The likelihood that Italian woven patches were made for the 82nd would be remote at best. Geographically and demographically, Sicily is not Italy.

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I personally think the 17th Airborne patches often attributed to Italy were actually made in Germany...

Andy,

 

I can't wait until you find a German made patch that has the same construction that the 17th A/B patch does, so that you can prove your theory.

 

Allan

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Here are my observations. I believe the patch on this uniform is an "Italian-made" 17th, although the tab is a standard US style. The jacket and shirt in this group have the same patch configuration, and belonged to a member of the 325th GIR. He served with the regiment in the MTO, Holland, France and Germany, returning with the 17th when they came back to the US in Sep 1945. Although it is a piece of non-US insignia, I will show it purely to make a comparison point between it and US insignia. Mods pls feel free to delete if this crosses a line. The BEVO CT was brought home by a US vet. I purchased it and his US items from the daughter a number of years ago. You can immediately see the similarities between these pieces of insignia. I also have paraglide patches made just like this in groups to men who served in Italy and Germany, but also guys that served exclusively in western Europe and Germany. Why would Italian-made 17th Abn patches exist? Even the men who served in Italy and were eventually assigned to the 17th would have had no inkling of this when they were in Italy.

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Here is the CT compared to two paraglide patches made in the same BEVO woven style, although the pattern is tough to see in the resized images.. The para glides belonged to a member of the 506th who never set foot in Italy. To those of you who also collect German militaria, the reverse of the second one will look familiar. Although the same in design and weave, it is somewhat larger that the first one and stitched to a piece of heavy buckram material that is the same as that found in BEVO SS collar tabs.

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Here is a better shot of one of these, on the right. These both belonged to a 504th vet who served throughout the entire war with the 82nd. It shows the woven pattern more clearly

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I don't know about you but find the argument difficult to follow. Do we know for sure that "bevo" patches were actually manufactured in Italy? We do know that there were German plants that manufactured "bevo" patches. Just asking I have no dog in this fight. Remember you can find multiple examples of troops having patches made that were not remotely close to geographic area and even oceans apart. Maybe it is enough to just say that it is "bevo" construction and leave it at that.

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To be clear...I'm not saying that BEVO patches were made in Italy, although perhaps this same technique was used there. What I'm saying is that the 17th Abn patches often identified as Italian-made were actually made in the very early occupation period in Germany. Why would someone in the 17th Airborne Division have patches made in Italy? That makes no sense to me whatsoever given the history of the unit. Why would the logic used about woven 82nd patches mentioned in post #6 not also apply to 17th patches made in Italy?

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I always thought that woven style paraglide cap patches were made in France.

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I always thought that woven style paraglide cap patches were made in France.

 

They were. They have NOTHING to do with the Italian style woven patches.

 

Allan

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What sort of proof exists about the French cap badges? Just curious...

 

Also, please explain the logic behind Italian-made 17th Airborne patches. Maybe I am missing something...

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The woven cap patches were evidently available for purchase at camps Mourmelon-le-Grand and Mourmelon-le-Petit while the US Airborne units were resting and refitting after serving in the Netherlands during Operation Market-Garden. We know this because these woven patches show up on occasion in WWII KIA groupings, which would make German manufacture an impossibility. I have two KIA groups with one of the woven cap patches in each. Both came right out of the woodwork and were never tainted by another collector.

 

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To clear this up for the forum members are we saying that the ,17th,34th,36th 45th,85th, 91st,92nd div,4thcorp,AF, etc "BEVO" patches were made in Germany or in Italy,or some in one place and others in the other? We know that there is an 83rd CHM Bn that is French made in BEVO style,were some of those above possibly made in France? If no definitive answer,it again maybe adequate to just say BEVO construction and leave it at that.

 

Mort

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Allan presents some very compelling info regarding the cap badges, although the similarity between the large version I posted and WWII German BEVO SS collar tabs is striking IMO, particularly the backing material. The black weave pattern of the BEVO Der Fuhrer CT I posted is identical to that of the 17th Abn patch. Again, I see no logical reason why a 17th Abn patch would be made in Italy. Also, BEVO is a German trade/company name, so would only apply to actual German-made insignia. I believe the style of weaving is called jacquard, and is not peculiar to a specific country.

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True what you say concerning Bevo is accurate as to origin company name, but for common usage and understanding for the lay collector Bevo is the accepted term and which is used in all most all descriptions of this type of patch and not the technically more correct jacquard method. Similar to Kleenex tissue when it is actually Puffs or Scotts or CVS.

 

So what is answer were they made in Italy or Germany or not sure?

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At the end of the day, my point was that I doubt the 17th patches in question were made in Italy, and I feel they share a striking similarity to WWII German BEVO made insignia. I may have inserted some confusion in to the discussion with the cap badges...but to my eye they also share a striking resemblance to the 17th patches.

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Again posted purely for comparison to the US insignia in question is the reverse of a BEVO SS rune collar tab. Compare this to the para glide patch in post 11...

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Nearly every German made woven patch for US use has a cloth back. BeVo is actually a shortened name for a specific German company that was bombed out of existence during the war (so they could not have made US insignia. They were known for Germn insignia). The name Be = Beteiligung (partnership) and VO = Vorsteher. The correct company name is BeVO Wuppetal (the city it was in). Logically, there were other companies in Germany that made woven patches, because there are differences between Bevos and these other patches.

 

However, there are a few that don't have backs, and they all look strikingly different than Italian woven patches. Here are a few:

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