Italian 82nd woven?

[tredhed2]

One more

[mortaydc60]

As Rodney Dangerfield said in "Back to School", "Good Answer! "

[patches]

As a Reference. the entire 82nd fought in Italy, the 504th remained behind when the rest of the division moved to England, Stanton gives a November 1943 the division leaves Italy, England Via Africa, Northern Ireland.

 

http://www.ww2-airborne.us/division/82_overview.html

[iron bender]

Great info by all. I still wonder if the 82nd AB had woven patches made in Italy. According to the Keller's books these 17th patches are post war German and not Italian manufactured. Any chance they are post war Italian made? I also wonder if 10th Mountain woven patches exist. I have one Italian made 10th Mountain patch and it's embroidered on felt.

[mortaydc60]

To answer your question no one has ever seen a woven 82nd, it does not exist and that is from over 100'syears of experience telling you from the experts on the forum. Pretty sure from all the info given above the 17th is ITALIAN.

[BILL THE PATCH]

Is there a thread just Showing woven or bevo made patches if not maybe someone should start one. Would be nice to all the different styles be it German or Italian made.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

 

[iron bender]

I could offer these up as Italian manufactured woven. This is the extent of this type of patch in my collection.

 

[iron bender]

...reverse...

 

 

[Kadet]

I could offer these up as Italian manufactured woven. This is the extent of this type of patch in my collection.

 

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This gets us back to my original point. To my eye, the reverse of the "Italian" 17th Airborne patch looks nothing like these typical Italian-made examples. They are both woven, and have reverse colors on the back but to me the loose threads, especially on the tab, look more like the German made examples posted earlier by Tredhead

[Kadet]

..also, I'm not talking about the fraying around the edges of the example I posted, but the yellow threads between the letters.

[Kadet]

Here are some better pics of German-made woven insignia, including the reverse of the CT showing what lettering looks like on these..

[Kadet]

2

[mortaydc60]

Always thought the 113th Cav was Belgium made? Since we are not sure exactly where these were made would it be simpler to say "theater made bevo style"

[Kadet]

Always thought the 113th Cav was Belgium made? Since we are not sure exactly where these were made would it be simpler to say "theater made bevo style"

Yes! I think I will cry uncle and let it got at European theater made woven...which also seems to be the conclusion the Kellers came to in their book. I personally think Italian-made is the least likely option for the 17th patches though, simply based on the history of the unit. These 17th patches also bear a resemblance to the para glide patches posted earlier that were apparently made in France. France would be a more logical location for 17th Abn patches.

[Kadet]

here is an interesting obverse comparison between the "French" paraglide an the "Italian" 17th...

[patches]

A question about the Italian made patches, when did they first start to appear, Summer of 44??, if this was the time, summer 44, before the 6th Corps, 3rd 36th, and 45th Divisions leave for Southern France in August,, then the reason we should think no 82nd Abn Div patches were made is because the short period of time they were there, long gone by mid-late 44.

 

In example, these units (45th Division up till August 44, 92nd Division arrives Autumn 44) were in Italy up to and past the summer of 44.

 

[doyler]

Found this Austrian Occupation Forces woven on line.Hadnt seen this one before and thought it interesting.Back is covered in cloth like the typical german made 1st Inf,7th Army,USFET etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kadet]

Ron, I would say that one is German or Austrian-made. One of the traits I've noticed in the bona fide Italian woven patches is that the motif inside the patch also tends to be woven. The "Italian" 17th has the motif done in thread, as does the "French" paraglide. The para glides, at least the ones I own in groups, have a cheese cloth backing on them that makes a direct comparison of the reverses difficult. Peering through the cheese cloth though, I think the reverse of the "Italian" 17th and "French" para glides is very similar. When you hold the two patches they also feel the same. I think French provenance would make a WHOLE lot more sense for these woven 17th patches.

[doyler]

I agree.

 

I have not really considered the theatre made 17th a Italian piece.

 

Speaking with several veterans over the years I never got a full answer as well to where they were made.Most went on the serve in the occupation.Being veterans they didn't really see the point in my asking where or who made a patch that they wore.

 

I do have one on a ike and the vet was a former member of the FSSF who later served with the 501st(101st Abn) and then assigned to the 193 or 194th Glider for his trip home.He had the theatre made 17th on his left sleeve.I also have several patches from a 17th vet who was wounded then ended up in the 325th Glider(82nd Abn) and served in the occupation.Non of his 17th are the woven ones.

 

Makes me wonder if the high point men transferred into the 17th to be returned state side had the patches available to them after VE day.

 

The division history lists the units as moving into the area around Essen with them spreading out to towns of Hamborn,Duisburg and Oberhousen.Then around June 15th 1945 found them moving to Nancy area of France instead of Berlin as rumor had it.The unit history states the troops deployed over the country side.The 194th to Luneville,513th to to an air strip near Tantonville,507th to Epinal,Divarty battalions to Neufchateau,155th to Contrexville,and Special Troops and Headquarters to Vittel.From this point on they were in France and the 17th was designated a high point division that would return to the states .There was a large influx of high point men seeing those from the 509th,550th,551st and FSSF come aboard.On September 17th 1945 the men who were destined for discharge were sent to the port of Marseilles to embark on the ships Wakefield and Mariposa for the trip to Boston.

[doyler]

Here is a vet acquired uniform.THe woven patch is on the left sleeve.He was a former FSSF.I have a loose 17th woven as well from him in a frame.

 

 

[doyler]

His framed patches and items.He served post war in Korea as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Dentino]

His framed patches and items.He served post war in Korea as well.

 

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Show off!!!!!! Wow, what an amazing uniform Ron!

[Allan H.]

This is what I wrote about the "bevo" style 17th patch back in 2012... The post is in the pinned thread on 17th A/B types at the top of this patch section. This was five years ago.

 

Now to the "type 14" which is identified as German made due to the fact that it is of bevo style manufacture. This type of SSI has caused quite a stir among collectors over the years as it rather closely mimics the style of weave done by the Italians. In fact, I have always believed that this is more likely an Italian made patch than a German made patch and I believe this for two reasons. First, the thickness of the patch is VERY similar to the Italian made pieces and there are really no loose threads like those found in German bevo embroidery. My second point is that the majority of these SSI's that I have encountered have come from veterans who transferred to the 17th to head back to the USA earlier than the other airborne divisions.
Now, I am sure I am going to hear the argument that the 17th didn't fight in Italy, so why would the SSI exist as an Italian made piece? My answer is that the 460th Parachute Field Artillery Battalion was assigned to the 17th Airborne, but was detached from the 17th to be sent to Italy. I have encountered photos of the 17th A/B SSI being worn by troopers in the 517th RCT in Italy and Southern France. I would say that it is entirely possible that the patches were made in Italy and then sent to the 17th A/B at the end of the war. They would not have been popular (since they didn't look like the "normal" 17th patches, so they were passed out to replacements).

 

Allan

[88thcollector]

I am just adding this for what it is worth, I bought a what is referred to as the French made para - glider patch from Carl Robin decades ago. Carl said it was made in Nice when the troops were on leave there. I have never tried to verify this.

[Bill K]

Just for the record, here's the back of one of these Para/gliders. I bought a really beat up one to see how these were really made. As luck would have it there was enough loose backing material to just turn the patch inside out so to speak. Bill