ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Share #1 Posted March 23, 2018 Been following recent topics on the USMC helmet camo pattern types for some months now. Been some amazing input by members here on whether the non slit version of the Marine Corps helmet cover actually saw service or not. Many believe the Non slit version was actually a post war variant not seen or used in the PTO during WW2. Others believe that this camo was in fact an early production run of Camo covers that was shortly after being made upgraded to a slit version for foliage. Would make sense In my eyes as the 1953 camos all had slits. This has been a real hot topic between collectors and I would like to add this very special picture found by a friend and avid Marine Corps collector. I personally think its very special, and the actual first photo with proof that they did see use within the Pacific theatre during WW2. I would ask any members also to post pics of there non slit covers to add to this thread as so future reference can be found on this subject. The exact date of these being made is still a mystery, but one day Im sure it will come to light. I look forward to your comments and arguments for and against this photo Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #2 Posted March 23, 2018 Photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted March 23, 2018 Close up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #4 Posted March 23, 2018 The photo was taken on February 24, 1945 as L Company sought to reach and relieve the remains of the 23rd Marines. But just to get to those fellow Marines required a hellish, low-crawling advance across largely open ground in the face of mortar and machine gun fire. The 21st lasted three days as the tip of the spear at Airfield #2 before suffering so many losses that they were withdrawn and replaced by elements of the 9th Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #5 Posted March 23, 2018 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #6 Posted March 23, 2018 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dentino Posted March 23, 2018 Share #7 Posted March 23, 2018 I will add another wrinkle......I have a helmet and non-slit/solid cover WITH a large EGA on the front that I pulled straight out of the vets footlocker. He was discharged in 1946 and was at Iwo with the 2nd MarDiv. I remember it sparked quite the debate when I initially posted it (10 years ago or so now) here but it is exactly how I found it along with his uniform, cover, bring backs, etc. so I can't give you an answer but will post pictures sometime this weekend if you are interested in seeing them. Mike (Sgtdorango) and I had good conversations about it off line and he explained the EGA controvery to me then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #8 Posted March 23, 2018 I will add another wrinkle......I have a helmet and non-slit/solid cover WITH a large EGA on the front that I pulled straight out of the vets footlocker. He was discharged in 1946 and was at Iwo with the 2nd MarDiv. I remember it sparked quite the debate when I initially posted it (10 years ago or so now) here but it is exactly how I found it along with his uniform, cover, bring backs, etc. so I can't give you an answer but will post pictures sometime this weekend if you are interested in seeing them. Mike (Sgtdorango) and I had good conversations about it off line and he explained the EGA controvery to me then. Brian I would love to see it and also urge others with named or marked non slit covers to post Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
644td Posted March 23, 2018 Share #9 Posted March 23, 2018 Good topic, I look forward to reading more. I believe the evidence should speak for itself and Dean the picture you produced provides probably evidence to corroborate that point. I do not have an opinion one way or the other and do not own a camo covered ww2 helmet, so I again look forward to learning more. Marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #10 Posted March 23, 2018 Good topic, I look forward to reading more. I believe the evidence should speak for itself and Dean the picture you produced provides probably evidence to corroborate that point. I do not have an opinion one way or the other and do not own a camo covered ww2 helmet, so I again look forward to learning more. Marty Thanks Marty Your right, the picture does a lot of the Verbal needed for this topic. It should also open up more theories and maybe even a timeline for these non slit covers. Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted March 23, 2018 Share #11 Posted March 23, 2018 We've covered this in the forum. Most non slitted covers were used in 1944 and 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CW4AFB Posted March 23, 2018 Share #12 Posted March 23, 2018 I will add another wrinkle......I have a helmet and non-slit/solid cover WITH a large EGA on the front that I pulled straight out of the vets footlocker. He was discharged in 1946 and was at Iwo with the 2nd MarDiv. I remember it sparked quite the debate when I initially posted it (10 years ago or so now) here but it is exactly how I found it along with his uniform, cover, bring backs, etc. so I can't give you an answer but will post pictures sometime this weekend if you are interested in seeing them. Mike (Sgtdorango) and I had good conversations about it off line and he explained the EGA controvery to me then. 2nd MARDIV was at Iwo? Did you mean to say Saipan, Tinian or Okinawa? regards, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #13 Posted March 23, 2018 We've covered this in the forum. Most non slitted covers were used in 1944 and 45.Has a non slit cover photo with this amount of detail been posted before ? It was discussed and has been discussed for many years but this is the first solid good quality photo Ive ever seen Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 23, 2018 Share #14 Posted March 23, 2018 Pretty good evidence right there. Thanks for posting Arch. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share #15 Posted March 23, 2018 Pretty good evidence right there. Thanks for posting Arch. Ronnie Thanks Ronnie Hope your well Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 24, 2018 Share #16 Posted March 24, 2018 I am Dean and thank you for asking. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted March 24, 2018 Share #17 Posted March 24, 2018 A very good photo to look over and study further, thanks for posting! This one sure looks like a "1st Model" due to no readily visible slits. Before declaring this positive proof however I would need to see the high resolution original to verify....just me...lol. Other photos from 3-21 Marines on Iwo Jima show helmet covers with slits, which means absolutely nothing as it would depend on what was issued to the individual. Not to be one sided or totally discount the thought here as I would like to pin this down as much as anyone, but to study the provided photo closely as the slits can be so hard to find, here are some things to consider. See what you guys think, I'm always open to opinions. Below to study is a "2nd Model" USMC helmet cover, it is shown "greenside out" same side as worn in the photo. Notice how the center crown folded pleat has the top row of slits just below it. The slits themselves are rather high up in comparison to the entire helmet cover, same location as found on the "3rd Model". As I've mentioned before, how the helmet cover is applied to this helmet is key to determining where to start looking for the slits. Even though an offside rear picture, it appears that the helmet cover's center sewn seam is off center to the right of the shell just slightly. The arrow shows the end of the crown pleat showing this helmet cover looks to be also worn very far forward. If slits are here they would run nearly diagonal (very low in front & very high in back). Where you would normally see slits would now be the large material area below the slits at the rear. Looking just below the pleat there should be stitching if slits are present, which from the quality looks like there could be, by design another should be below as both the circles show might be as the marks fall outside the shapes. Where are the others? I won't say positively for now as I can't easily see them either from the picture quality but think a couple others could be there. But from my limited experience that does not mean they aren't there either for me from what is visible with picture quality and how worn on helmet shell. Just my current opinion from what is shown, but always happy to be proved wrong in order to get the true answer! Thanks for posting and opinions welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted March 24, 2018 Share #18 Posted March 24, 2018 I will add another wrinkle......I have a helmet and non-slit/solid cover WITH a large EGA on the front that I pulled straight out of the vets footlocker. He was discharged in 1946 and was at Iwo with the 2nd MarDiv. I remember it sparked quite the debate when I initially posted it (10 years ago or so now) here but it is exactly how I found it along with his uniform, cover, bring backs, etc. so I can't give you an answer but will post pictures sometime this weekend if you are interested in seeing them. Mike (Sgtdorango) and I had good conversations about it off line and he explained the EGA controvery to me then. Brian Seen a handful of these with the large ega.Its been a long time theory of mine the 2nd may have done this when in occupied Japan.Yours is the 3rd I know of that came out of a vets hands that didn't serve past 1947.No post war reserves or Korea service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share #19 Posted March 24, 2018 Brian Seen a handful of these with the large ega.Its been a long time theory of mine the 2nd may have done this when in occupied Japan.Yours is the 3rd I know of that came out of a vets hands that didn't serve past 1947.No post war reserves or Korea service. A very interesting Theory Doyler I think this is totally plausible, as its rare to see a Stamped EGA in Korean War photos. Seen a few if I remember correctly on Vietnam era lids , so this would explain them being on Brians Lid. Looking forward to seeing it. Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 24, 2018 Share #20 Posted March 24, 2018 And here's that topic, 12 pages worth. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/178391-usmc-wwii-frogskin-covers-rethinking-the-norm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share #21 Posted March 24, 2018 And here's that topic, 12 pages worth. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/178391-usmc-wwii-frogskin-covers-rethinking-the-norm/ 12 pages without this new photo - great thread by the way Comment from the thread: Myself and a few others I have talked to have a somewhat different opinion on this. That the no foliage slit "First Model" is actually a very late war produced version that may have been little or never used in WWII going by photo evidence found so far. So is the the first Photo with this quality that shows a non slit cover being used in theatre early 45. Which I would assume there must have been production of it in 44 and maybe even earlier Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share #22 Posted March 24, 2018 A very good photo to look over and study further, thanks for posting! This one sure looks like a "1st Model" due to no readily visible slits. Before declaring this positive proof however I would need to see the high resolution original to verify....just me...lol. Other photos from 3-21 Marines on Iwo Jima show helmet covers with slits, which means absolutely nothing as it would depend on what was issued to the individual. Not to be one sided or totally discount the thought here as I would like to pin this down as much as anyone, but to study the provided photo closely as the slits can be so hard to find, here are some things to consider. See what you guys think, I'm always open to opinions. Below to study is a "2nd Model" USMC helmet cover, it is shown "greenside out" same side as worn in the photo. Notice how the center crown folded pleat has the top row of slits just below it. The slits themselves are rather high up in comparison to the entire helmet cover, same location as found on the "3rd Model". USMF 2ND MOD.jpg As I've mentioned before, how the helmet cover is applied to this helmet is key to determining where to start looking for the slits. Even though an offside rear picture, it appears that the helmet cover's center sewn seam is off center to the right of the shell just slightly. The arrow shows the end of the crown pleat showing this helmet cover looks to be also worn very far forward. If slits are here they would run nearly diagonal (very low in front & very high in back). Where you would normally see slits would now be the large material area below the slits at the rear. Looking just below the pleat there should be stitching if slits are present, which from the quality looks like there could be, by design another should be below as both the circles show might be as the marks fall outside the shapes. USMF IWO COVER.jpg Where are the others? I won't say positively for now as I can't easily see them either from the picture quality but think a couple others could be there. But from my limited experience that does not mean they aren't there either for me from what is visible with picture quality and how worn on helmet shell. Just my current opinion from what is shown, but always happy to be proved wrong in order to get the true answer! Thanks for posting and opinions welcome! Thanks for the response Pump The photo is a first real close up look of one in use IMHO I have to disagree that there are slits there , looking at the whole picture where you have pointed out where you think they should be I still see none around 75% of the rear of the camo cover which shows it being without. All of my patterns with slits have them around the helmet evenly spaced around the entire camo cover. Photo below of Harry J Wettering camo cover and helmet showing even spacing around the whole helmet. Once again this is my opinion Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share #23 Posted March 24, 2018 Harry J Wettering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted March 24, 2018 Share #24 Posted March 24, 2018 Dean, Good discussion and research is how the truth will be found in the end, no doubt. As said, great picture and most worthy to research for the high res original in the archives for further investigation! Best, pump 150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDUFF Posted March 24, 2018 Share #25 Posted March 24, 2018 Hi Dean, I am with you. This is the best photo so far to show a non slitted helmet cover being used on Iwo Jima. Just to add to the theory also are two original 4th Div UNIS marked helmet covers in private collections that I know of which are non-slitted. Hope they help the cause! Cheers Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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