517th PIR camo helmet original or not ?

[doyler]

 

Thanks for weighing in but fake is fake. What's new?

 

There is advice all over this forum that a para helmet, medic helmet, etc., with zero provenance "looks good" even with no proof. There are far more fakes than authentic "painted" helmets now IMO. Even some burned in the recent scandal still fall for the next one to show up as if nothing ever happened.

Not sure exactly who you are referring to but without good provenance I error on the side of "fake" and it's works well for me. Did here as well. The visible inconsistencies applicable to any M1 just added to it.

 

Dave

 

P.S. For future reference please tell us what a 517 helmet is.

 

I believe he may be referring to post #26

 

I didn't respond earlier to post #26.... many do know or realize that not all Airborne helmets were M2s or in that configuration and M1s were a standard substitute both modified and unmodified.

[Simon Lerenfort]

The helmet is fake, though it is attempting to look like the actual helmets worn by the 517th PRCT for the Dragoon jumps.

A couple of people who posted in this thread clearly have no idea what a 517th helmet is. Read a reference book or article on the topic before giving advice about something you yourself know nothing about.

 

JL

 

Glad you saw this one Jean-Loup, as I thought of the one in your collection when I first saw the camouflage. The camouflage looks a good job even if the rest is made up.

 

Salut!

Simon.

[Jean-Loup]

I am on vacation writting this on my phone with a crappy connection, so am not in any position to start a reference thread. Post 26 is indeed the one I was mainly refering to. No need to respond to it, the many photos posted after it speak for themselves.

For its southern France jump, the 517th was equiped almost exclusively with helmets on which rigger made chinstraps had been applied. The helmets, uniforms and equipment were camouflaged in the days preceding the jump. Because they were camouflaged at thesame time, the colours and method of application was done in a certain consistent way.

The helmet in this thread is a pretty good attempt at a fake, bit it does not correspond to the known originals.

For good period reference photos, see 517prct.org and Michel de Trez' book First Airborne Task Force. This article is also good: http://www.517prct.org/documents/militaria_517th_prct_article_final.pdf

For those who have access to French Militaria magazine, there is an article by myself in this month´s issue as well.

 

JL

[Jean-Loup]

I forgot to say that though some work went into this fake, the aging is very badly done and a dead give away. I believe both US helmet collectors and fakers could learn a bit from the German helmet field

 

JL

[dmar836]

Yes. I deleted a comment stating that "those who know the most I trust the least" meaning it is obvious this faker knew what to fake. At the defense of the #26 post I don't think he was being emphatic but that going by what he was told, he was doubtful - not a bad thing and would help him in most situations.

I'm certainly no expert so thanks for the solid references. Unfortunately, I cannot read French but that looks like a great article.

Would love to see a separate reference thread.

Dave

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

The previous pictures were ones I selected to show the chinstraps, but many did show the camo good. Here a few more showing the camo, all of these are again from the 517 website.

 

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

 

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

 

again these are from the 517th website I linked before. It is hard to tell what is a shadow and what is paint so I didn't post some of the more debatable ones.

[dmar836]

More great shots.

I guess I don't really see the consistency in the helmet camo though. Some have a definite arc on one side but that's about all I can really note.

If the same individual sprayed them all I wonder if one could figure out how they would have been laid out and sprayed - circular loop pattern down the line of helmets or dragon tooth spray pattern on one pass, etc.? Then again I'm not sure they would have carefully placed each helmet in the same orientation nor would they have had them all at once. Could it have been done at the time when the M42s were sprayed? I've read that they were in some instances worn at the time of spraying. How about the web gear, cases, etc? Sprayed while worn or are the backs sprayed as well?

 

Back to the original subject piece. I do think I would run from any helmet that still retains its "original" net.

 

Dave

[Burning Hazard]

I am on vacation writting this on my phone with a crappy connection, so am not in any position to start a reference thread. Post 26 is indeed the one I was mainly refering to. No need to respond to it, the many photos posted after it speak for themselves.

For its southern France jump, the 517th was equiped almost exclusively with helmets on which rigger made chinstraps had been applied. The helmets, uniforms and equipment were camouflaged in the days preceding the jump. Because they were camouflaged at thesame time, the colours and method of application was done in a certain consistent way.

The helmet in this thread is a pretty good attempt at a fake, bit it does not correspond to the known originals.

For good period reference photos, see 517prct.org and Michel de Trez' book First Airborne Task Force. This article is also good: http://www.517prct.org/documents/militaria_517th_prct_article_final.pdf

For those who have access to French Militaria magazine, there is an article by myself in this month´s issue as well.

 

JL

 

I still remember from a long time ago there was a big commotion in the militaria collecting world that one of the helmets in De Trez's book was a fake, I can't recall but I believe it was a 517th helmet that was not owned by De Trez, but by another collector who fooled him into photographing it for the book or something like that.

 

Can somebody put the whole story to bed on what really happened and whether the 517th in the book is real or not?

 

Pat

[pararaftanr2]

Many years ago I spoke with a 17th airborne division trooper. He participated in the drop across the Rhine in 1945, Operation Varsity. He said they put on their full individual equipment and got in a single file line. Two Air Corps ground crewman were at the head of the line, both with spray guns, one with black paint, the other with gray. Each trooper advanced and made a 360 degree pivot while being sprayed from head-to-toe. I don't know how they did it for Dragoon, but it was probably something similar.

Regards, Paul

[Jean-Loup]

I am not saying it is one individual who did the camo on all the men of the 517th prct. What I am saying is that the camouflage was done at the same time, with similar colors and equipment. No need to to into exact details as this will just tell the fakers what to correct.

There are photos of the 517th men being camoed, standing up in their uniforms. I have not seen any of the helmets or equipment being done, but it was obviously a rushed job. Presumably the stuff was put on the ground and painted en nasse.

As for De Trez, I am refering to the period photos in his book FABTF. The fake helmet you are refering to is the Lemen helmet, a soldier kia on 16 august 1944 and shown in another book that I do not own. Apparently a guy named Sparky made this fake. I have no idea if what has been written about this helmet on the trigger time forum is true or not, but I personaly do not like that helmet at all, and it seems that the Sparky caracter has been kicked off all the forums.... Supposedly he once posted photo of himself producing that specific fake.... All hearsay for me however...

 

JL

[dmar836]

Great info. Thanks. My wife's grandfather was in the 17th(507th) and jumped in Varsity. Never got to meat him. I didn't know they camo'd them for that jump.

Dave