British or German made 1st ID?

[Desertrat]

I am thinking Brit...what is y'alls opinion?

 

 

[GIKyle]

Definitely British made - Nice one!

[Teamski]

Mmm.....I thought this was German.

 

-Ski

[Desertrat]

The wool base and black return threads on the back make me lean toward British. I know there are German made patches with black on the back as well but I have not seen one with this type of wool.

 

Also, Top Kick Militaria has one that is made almost the same but the colors are lighter that they ID as British made. They are usually spot on with their descriptions.

[Gunslinger]

Agree with SKI, these are German made.

 

The embroidery, wool base & linen backing are consistent with German production.

 

Below are two Original English made 1st I.D.

 

 

CDub

[Jeeperz83]

The patch posted at top is definitely occupation era German made.

[Desertrat]

I know the consensus is German made but I will throw this one in to muddy the waters. Vintage Productions ID'ed as British made and looks very similar to mine.

 

http://www.vintageproductions.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=13484

[Jeeperz83]

I believe that patch to be misidentified, It's also a German made example. The two posted above are correct as British produced variants. That brown felted wool base is distinctly German.

 

 

 

I know the consensus is German made but I will throw this one in to muddy the waters. Vintage Productions ID'ed as British made and looks very similar to mine.

 

http://www.vintageproductions.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=13484

[GIKyle]

To further the discussion - Below are effects of a 1st Division soldier KIA in April of 45, before the occupation. These have been, and still are with the family. To me, this is good evidence that the discussed wool patches are Brit made.

 

[Gunslinger]

The only logical explanation for the 1st Infantry insignia with grouping is someone added it at a later date.

 

The materials used are not of English production, search German tropical insignia from WWII and hundreds of examples with similar construction method can be found. A legit English made insignia dating mid to late war were produced with Felt, Silk or Printed on canvas, this is directly related to a shortage of Raw Materials the UK had avaliable.

 

The Country of Origin for the these wool insignia were misidentify many years ago, collectors assumed they were English made because of the blackback threads. However blackback insignia were produced by several country's including U.S., UK, France and Germany.

 

Unfortunately this insignia was produced in Germany Early Occupation period to 1950s.

 

 

CDub

 

[Jeeperz83]

Gunslinger makes a good point.

 

I've seen a similar April 1945 KIA 1st Division group that included a German made patch and CIB that was sent back to the family with his personal effects in late 1945 or early 1946.

[GIKyle]

Thanks for the response; I certainly agree with your point that a black back does not automatically equal British Made. I do need to recheck some of my insignia, because it seems there is British-made insignia on wool

 

I was privy to enjoy the correspondence contained in the above-photographed group. The soldier's brother, who is the caretaker of these items, wrote his brother for souvenirs, to which his brother obliged in the form of his own insignia as well as German trophies. The family kept all correspondence with friends of this soldier, until 1946 by which time they all went home. None of those contained mention of gifted insignia, rather information about the circumstances of death.

 

I went back to my closes and photographed two Ikes belonging to 1st Division soldiers, both bearing the patch in question. These men served with the division for the entire war, thus were home and discharged by September, 1945. I could, for sake of argument, accept the potential (however small, in my opinion) that the patch was added to the KIA group. I don't know if or why the below vets would remove their wartime patches to add these after they were out of the service. Never say never, though.

 

 

Thanks again for the comments and discussion.

 

Kyle