Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #26 Posted February 11, 2018 I really don't think it is rack/lot marks. So when they reissued the helmet and cover, the marines all walked around with big rack marks on the back of their helmets/covers? That makes zero sense to me. I attached a picture of the cover also, it has H18 on the back, and an EGA on the front. Maybe you should have sent a photo with the cover in the first place............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #27 Posted February 11, 2018 And yes I've seen covers with these yellow Markings as well. All from Korean War era. (mainly 1953 covers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudgy (V) Posted February 11, 2018 Share #28 Posted February 11, 2018 Sorry, I had it tucked into the suspension and I like to display the shell, so I was being lazy. I believe they were possibly used like a leadership stripe simular to the army. So when the Marines storm a beach, they can be sure they were with their designated group. Typically the marines used a three digit code like K31 which stood for K company, 3rd regiment, 1st marine Division. I was guessing the 22 stood for 2nd regiment 2nd marine division, and the 18 stood for 1st regiment 8th marine division. I'm just not sure what the H or S possibly stood for. These are just my thoughts after racking my brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted February 11, 2018 Share #29 Posted February 11, 2018 Been researching the 2nd division and found these symbols relating to it. Looks like the OPs symbol is for the 2nd Mar div Recon battalion Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #30 Posted February 11, 2018 Been researching the 2nd division and found these symbols relating to it. Looks like the OPs symbol is for the 2nd Mar div Recon battalion Dean Very Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #31 Posted February 11, 2018 Apparently the battalion only fought on Tarawa and Saipan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 11, 2018 Share #32 Posted February 11, 2018 How is the marking applied? Looks like some sort of black pencil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M422A1 Posted February 11, 2018 Share #33 Posted February 11, 2018 Sorry, I had it tucked into the suspension and I like to display the shell, so I was being lazy. I believe they were possibly used like a leadership stripe simular to the army. So when the Marines storm a beach, they can be sure they were with their designated group. Typically the marines used a three digit code like K31 which stood for K company, 3rd regiment, 1st marine Division. I was guessing the 22 stood for 2nd regiment 2nd marine division, and the 18 stood for 1st regiment 8th marine division. I'm just not sure what the H or S possibly stood for. These are just my thoughts after racking my brain. The three digit code used by Marines such as "K35" stands for Company K, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment. The third number is the regiment, not the division. The Marines, at their peak in WWII only had six divisions. There never was an 8th Division. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #34 Posted February 11, 2018 How is the marking applied? Looks like some sort of black pencil? I believe so. I was thinking it was applied like the UNIS marked Canteen covers but instead of using a stencil it was hand done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudgy (V) Posted February 11, 2018 Share #35 Posted February 11, 2018 Thanks Mike, you are right. I always do that. I think you get the idea I was shooting for. The cover is a 1953 dated cover, so I believe that was stamped then, so it wouldn't have been WWII. I don't think this cover as always with this helmet. The helmet is a early WWII helmet with a later war liner stenciled FLD. The tac marks could have possibly been applied to the helmet then or in Korea. The cover I believe was added later because the name Sumner is penciled on the side with different tac markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king802 Posted February 11, 2018 Share #36 Posted February 11, 2018 Been researching the 2nd division and found these symbols relating to it. Looks like the OPs symbol is for the 2nd Mar div Recon battalion Dean Those signs are generic to all units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 11, 2018 Share #37 Posted February 11, 2018 Good Lord, thank you. I've said that twice so far, and apparently am not a good communicator. The same unit organizational chart exists for every division, using the same unit-type symbols - none of which denote a division. The yellow markings on the helmet / cover are not a rack number - helmets were kept with the soldier / Marine, even in garrison, so no reason to ID a rack position. This would be reserved for weapons or other items that were kept in a centralized location when not deployed - like gas masks. Those signs are generic to all units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 11, 2018 Share #38 Posted February 11, 2018 Here it is in the 3rd MARDIV org. Been researching the 2nd division and found these symbols relating to it. Looks like the OPs symbol is for the 2nd Mar div Recon battalion Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 11, 2018 Share #39 Posted February 11, 2018 And 4th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 11, 2018 Share #40 Posted February 11, 2018 And 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #41 Posted February 11, 2018 Likely either the 3rd or 4th recon Bn since most Non slitted covers were used on Iwo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogskin7 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share #42 Posted February 11, 2018 Better photo of the cover, Green side is in great shape while the Sand side...... not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 12, 2018 Share #43 Posted February 12, 2018 Can you show a better photo of the marking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted February 12, 2018 Share #44 Posted February 12, 2018 Those signs are generic to all units. They sure are , Great talking points here and great information on a very complex system of marking gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 12, 2018 Share #45 Posted February 12, 2018 As an outro, I would add that actual UNIS is not complex at all. These other markings are mysteries, but UNIS is well-known, deciphered, and documented. What should be kept close is a simple mnemonic: "no numbers = no UNIS". "UNIS" stands for Unit Numerical Identification System, with emphasis on "numerical". If there is not a three-digit number at center, it's not UNIS. I don't think I'm playing semantics here, as they mean wildly different things. UNIS identifies unit via shapes and numbers representing division (geometric shape) and regiment, battalion, and company (three-digit number). With the number, the '100s' position is regiment, with '10s' being battalion, and '1s' being company. There is some complexity to applicability when it comes to some unit structures, like maybe regimental headquarters. However, they are always three-digits. There is a good example on eB@y currently, of a P3 canteen cover, marked with a half-circle with "601" in its center. That is 4th Division (semi circle), 14th Artillery Regiment ("6--"), Regiment ("-0-"), HQ Company ("--1"). This system was developed to keep intelligence from the enemy, by not marking in-theater gear in a way that made it easy to identify the unit. I have been studying marked USMC gear intently for years, and the ONLY variation I've seen is the lack of geometric shape in a handful of cases. That is usually in examples where the piece of equipment is too small to allow the shape to fit - even hand-drawn. I have seen this on Carlisle pouches, knife sheaths, and other small gear. In terms of frequency of UNIS appearance by division, it overwhelmingly favors the 4th MARDIV. This is somewhat anecdotal, through period photos, and availability of UNIS-marked pieces at market. I see some 5th MARDIV UNIS-marked gear, which has mainly been HBT jackets. I've seen a little of the others, except the 6th MARDIV. To-date, I've never seen a legitimate 6th MARDIV UNIS-marked item. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudgy (V) Posted February 12, 2018 Share #46 Posted February 12, 2018 Thanks Blacksmith! Very interesting stuff. Now if only you could decipher my helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 12, 2018 Share #47 Posted February 12, 2018 I like your helmet a good bit. The yellow on the back of the helmet is absolutely a USMC stencil to my eye. The "font", if you will, has line breaks in the right places, and its shape conforms to that standard. The red stencil on the shell, to me anyway, looks like an Army stencil. I am sure there were mixed stencils used, as Marines and Army units were operating in proximity to one another - that said, the different colors would point to them being done at different times. Are there any other markings in the liner, shell, or cover? I would look really close, with a flashlight, and an IR light source if available. I've been really surprised at what I've found that way. Thanks Blacksmith! Very interesting stuff. Now if only you could decipher my helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudgy (V) Posted February 12, 2018 Share #48 Posted February 12, 2018 http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27751-usmc-lids/?hl=%2Bhawley&do=findComment&comment=316595 I found a posting of a similar stenciled Hawley. I hope the link works, I couldn't copy it for some reason, I had to type it. I will look tonight to see if I can find any other markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted February 12, 2018 Share #49 Posted February 12, 2018 Link worked fine. Similar maybe only in that it's in red. The Hawley stencil is the smaller non-serif USMC stencil. Yours is the larger Army-style serif version. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27751-usmc-lids/?hl=%2Bhawley&do=findComment&comment=316595 I found a posting of a similar stenciled Hawley. I hope the link works, I couldn't copy it for some reason, I had to type it. I will look tonight to see if I can find any other markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudgy (V) Posted February 12, 2018 Share #50 Posted February 12, 2018 Ok, so you might be right. Might have been a shared army stencil. I was never in the military, and I don't know half of what some of you guys know, so I will throw out theory. I'm guessing the two numbers represent a battalion/regiment combination. Is it possible the letter designates a sector on a beach? That way every soldier knows where he should be by looking at a map. It also gives the opportunity for officers behind the scene to see if things are going to plan. The letter and numbers should be big enough to see through binoculars. Does that sound reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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