"Theater Made" MK2 handles..not so sure

[dustin]

You Don't ! is the simple answer. That is the mine field of "Theater Knives", neat but impossible to prove in many cases. Obviously you have your no brainers like the example posted. There is a local guy that makes hand made knives with Plexiglas handles, been doing it for decades, once used a little and signs of patina it could pass as WWII. Collecting theater knives is kind of like believing in the healing power of crystals, is it real or not?!

[doyler]

Dustin has presented some great information and photos.As stated its been a on going question for years...is it or isnt it ? Often there is also the aspect if knives made by local home front craftsman that were sent or given to those in service.These often are erroneously called "theatre made".Unless you know the maker or where the knife came from often its speculation on many levels to when or where the item was made.

 

 

To me the term "theatre made" is gotten to the level of the term "rigger made" which often accompanies a piece of gear that isnt standard and often was post a war surplus biproduct to sell something of little commercial use.

[thorin6]

I have a number of "Theater" knives. Here's one that I really like, but the question is "When was it made?" Both the sheath and the knife are marked with the service member's name, and the knife also has his hometown. I know he enlisted early one (I can't remember if Dec 1941 or Jan-Feb 1942, he's in the NARA records) but that's about all I could find. But was this made from a broke bayonet to use as a knife while he was in service, or after the war as a remembrance piece? What ever, still a nice piece (and yes, that's a Wilde Tool bayonet with original scales).

 

[KRIS FORD]

The blade looks like the picture; no pitting, but the discoloration is pretty uniform. Here's a closer picture with the Ka-bar marking.

Hold on a sec.no USN or USMC mark on the other side? Didn't the KA-BAR MK2 actually come out in 1943? First by Camillus? Odd that a KA-BAR would have been re-handled when it was brand new..(from what I know the first shipment was actually in early 1943)..so how/why was did it get a replacement handle on a BRAND NEW knife..and date stamped in the past??

 

POSSIBLY done as an after war memento? Can't say handle was salt water corroded..AMM 1st class would have been high and dry..even if found..1942 date stamp doesn't jive with a "brand new" knife that wasn't even seen til 1943..did Union Cutlery make an exact blade shape as the Mk2 on the civilian market? Why 1942 stamp? Too many questions for me..

 

This is why I won't buy ANY "theater made" ANYTHING.

[dustin]

Ahhh​ but you're assuming its a "MK2". I don't think its a MK2, blade looks a little short. Union Cutlery was a large commercial manufacturer that made many similar patterns to the adopted MK2/1219c.

​Here is an example. Granted its not the same exact blade as posted, but hunt and you'll find a variety. I'm just pointed out it could be plausible that it is indeed WWII

 

[KRIS FORD]

Ahhh​ but you're assuming its a "MK2". I don't think its a MK2, blade looks a little short. Union Cutlery was a large commercial manufacturer that made many similar patterns to the adopted MK2/1219c.

​Here is an example. Granted its not the same exact blade as posted, but hunt and you'll find a variety. I'm just pointed out it could be plausible that it is indeed WWII

 

kabar.jpg

kabar2.jpg

 

Yes, the blade shape just screamed out MK2 to me..so if so would have to be a civilian blade with handle replaced.

[KRIS FORD]

My inner skeptic has probably saved me from buying some cool and legit stuff..but I stick to what I know and can prove without doubt...NO chance of getting burned there.

[sactroop]

Kris not a bad habit to stick to what you know. It is generally accepted that the blade pattern adapted for use on the 1219C2 was one that Union Cutlery was already using in various blade lengths for some of their commercial models. Still your questions are good ones and without supporting documentation we get stuck with trying to fill in the blanks.

[thorin6]

Hold on a sec.no USN or USMC mark on the other side? Didn't the KA-BAR MK2 actually come out in 1943? First by Camillus? Odd that a KA-BAR would have been re-handled when it was brand new..(from what I know the first shipment was actually in early 1943)..so how/why was did it get a replacement handle on a BRAND NEW knife..and date stamped in the past??

 

POSSIBLY done as an after war memento? Can't say handle was salt water corroded..AMM 1st class would have been high and dry..even if found..1942 date stamp doesn't jive with a "brand new" knife that wasn't even seen til 1943..did Union Cutlery make an exact blade shape as the Mk2 on the civilian market? Why 1942 stamp? Too many questions for me..

 

This is why I won't buy ANY "theater made" ANYTHING.

 

USN on the other side.

 

[thorin6]

I forget who gave me the muster roll information; however, it showed him one rank below the AMM 1st Class and on Ford Island in January 1942.

 

[KRIS FORD]

MK2?

[dustin]

​Something to consider here is that your assuming the date of 1942 was when the handle was applied. In sight of facts, it is more plausible that the handle was added much later into his service, probably during the war. When he craved the information he applied 1942 as more of a commemorative date of his service. Note that in the Muster Roll his rate is Seaman 1/c, possibly while stationed at Ford Island is when he was upgraded to AMM and that occurred in 1942, hence the 1942 commemorative date of 1942.

[thorin6]

​Something to consider here is that your assuming the date of 1942 was when the handle was applied. In sight of facts, it is more plausible that the handle was added much later into his service, probably during the war. When he craved the information he applied 1942 as more of a commemorative date of his service. Note that in the Muster Roll his rate is Seaman 1/c, possibly while stationed at Ford Island is when he was upgraded to AMM and that occurred in 1942, hence the 1942 commemorative date of 1942.

 

I tend to agree, but without provenance, who knows. I still like it a lot.

 

[KRIS FORD]

As you should! Great knife!

 

 

I'm really not trying to argue here..but Seaman 2nd Class is E-2, and AMM1st Class is E-6..BIG jump (even in wartime!) 4 ranks, not one! The one first class(Harold) listed had been in 6 years, the ACM (Chief, Elmer) for 4..EM1 might have got in trouble? ACM was a fast mover to make Chief in 4 years! He was listed showing being on board there for less than a year..as E-2..in 1942..how does E-2 go to E-6 in a year? Such a rapid jump in ranks would surely have a paper trail..

To go from this:

to this:

Is kind of a stretch in a year..

 

Maybe it was done MUCH later..and was the way to say "Hey, this commemorates when I got to Ford Island"..rather than the date of the actual promotion..

 

 

(Please don't think I'm trying to down this knife..it is still very cool, and as a Navy vet, I love ALL things USN related..(Mk2s especially!) but I truly believe that this MK2 has different story to tell..one that is still as honorable in my opinion..even if ol' Curtis did it in the 70's or 80's.. )

[KRIS FORD]

Getting there a month or 2 after the attack would surely be something to remember..no matter WHEN in one's life span..

[dustin]

​I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment, I think your conflating modern era practices and procedures. E-ratings were different then, It was different world in WWII compared to today where a promotion can come quite quickly in that era versus today where it takes years.

​I'm wiling to wager that after boot camp he was S1/c, transferred to a Westcoast station then to Hawaii. There he received further technical training which earned him the new rate AMM1/c. Strait from S1/c to AMM1/c, much of this technical training only required 4-6 weeks. Also considering in the time frame of 1942 technically trained personnel were at a premium. I do know that through 1942 and into 1943 there was a severe lack of aircraft maintenance personnel, those that were assigned to air groups and squadrons took on much more than what was intended to keep them flying.

[KRIS FORD]

It says on the roll sheet S2c though.

 

4 rank jump is still unlikely..from E2 to a senior NCO. I could see maybe from E-2 to E-4 (AMM 3c)..but right to E6? How? He'd only been in 10 months as of March 31st 1942..

[KRIS FORD]

Could be a different guy all together..quick browse of the Muster Rolls on Ancestry show of few pages of Curtis C. Williams'.

[dustin]

​So I'm doing a little casual reading this evening and read though an article from a June 1945 publication all about the Naval Air Technical Training Command. What I read does help support my comment in post #41. An argument posted was that there was a big jump that wasn't quite plausible from an E-2 to an E-6.

​In this article it breaks down the whole system, when and where all this training takes place. In one section it states " In general, trainees entering A schools are second class seaman fresh from boot camp where they took aptitude tests to determine their adaptability for special types of work". After completing the courses from six to 21 weeks they then earn the rate of AMM, AM, AOM...etc.... The point here is that jumps in rates can happen quite rapidly

[KRIS FORD]

Yes, earn the rate..WWII or not..in the Navy, Rate and Rank are two very different things..he could have easily went being E-2 to E-4..from Seaman 2/c to AMM Third Class..mean both he was rated, and promoted in rank. E-6 is a senior commissioned man, and just makes way more sense that he could have got out as that, but was not that in 1942..(maybe by '45 though!)

 

BUt I'm thinking that this makes FAR more sense that it could be a completely different Curtis C Williams..still doesn't explain the 1942 date on a knife that the fleet didn't even see by 1943.

 

OR, same guy..knife done at a later time in his career, or later in life even..heck..might even be cooler to say he made it later..say he was a machine shop worker..suppose it was a chunk of Zero prop..that he made into the handle of the rotted MK2 knife he traded a guy back on the island for before he got out..he remembers getting there in 1942..and you'd always put your last earned rank on anything (still done today)..he wouldn't put SN 2/c on the knife if he got out as a AMM 1/c.

 

I am thinking of all this AS a sailor..we were still very rich in history and tradition when I was in.

[KRIS FORD]

The purpose of the Navy A school was/is to train one in their rate. (Gunners Mate, Fire Controlman, Aviation Ordnanceman..etc..) To teach a job, so your rate was what job you did, your rank is what you were paid. AMM 1/c is equal to a Staff Sergeant in the USMC or Army..and still seriously unlikely to give to someone who had less than a year in. If he even became a AMM1/c, it wasn't in 1942..in fact..this is why I believe it to be another Curtis C. Williams..how do we even know he'd become that rate/rank? We don't..only thing that muster shows is that a Curtis C. Williams was there March 31st, 1942..

 

That Ford Island muster probably came up on the search because it has the same name, but no rank other than S2/c..which is WAY too vague.. How do we know if it is even the same person..to me..more and more signs point to no, it is not...and if it was..he sure didn't become E-6 with less than a year in..

[thorin6]

Interesting discussion. I don't have an Ancestry.com account, and the initial search was done for me shortly after they digitized the Navy's muster rolls. I picked up the knife at the Baltimore Antique Militaria Show 5-6 years ago (maybe seven or eight?), no sheath. One of the reasons I generally don't research named items is because it so often ends in a Twilight Zone. My best guess is that this knife was made in the PTO on a ship or at an airfield; too nice to have been made near the front lines. The 42 may indicate when the service member arrived in theater, regardless of when he got his hands on the Mark 2 and when he made the handle. I'm keeping an open mind on this, and any information that points to another possibility is certainly welcome.