Questions: U.S. wartime military burials at sea

[Bluehawk]

I've been struggling to find the way to phrase this sensitive topic, for years... maybe have come up with it here... am seeking help from our USMF naval experts, Sigsaye, Mastersmate or anyone else willing/able to suggest references or explain this to an air man. Yes, I have done my due diligence seeking online information, to little avail.

 

One of the most touching military necessities, to me, is the thought of burial at sea, especially in wartime. I am not asking these questions about those who voluntarily are buried at sea, but rather about those who MUST be buried at sea, presumably only in war time. There is just something highly unusual about that act, which has stayed on my mind, and in my heart, ever since I was a little boy - for reasons which I am incapable of explaining.

 

Praying not be seen as too ignorant, and naive, therefore clarification and guidance is requested, upon the following questions:

 

1. How many wartime burials at sea have occurred during our military history?

2. Is there any complete or even slightly accurate official record of the exact or approximate nautical coordinates of those many many many burials?

3. When the sailor or Marine or Coastie or Merchant Marine (and other) is delivered over the side, what kind of weight is put in to keep them at the bottom?

4. Since there can, consequently, be NO headstone or visual memorial for them, how is family to know where they are?

 

http://There's a hole in the world tonight, Navy choiurr

 

 

[Bluehawk]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ysm0l

[29navy]

Good question. I know the ABMC Cemeteries in Hawaii and in Manila have a a Memorial called the Tablet of the missing, which also includes burials at sea. You can also access it through Find-a-grave.com or ancestry. However, not sure you can do a search on burials at sea. So their name is listed on these tablets. But not all buried at sea is so indicated.

 

Here's one for example: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56777372/robert-dixie-roach. I know he was buried off of Rendova. I know of another that was buried at sea and his entry on the tablet does not say he was. But some may list buried at sea when they were just lost at sea because the ship went down.

 

So the data is there, how you get it is another story. And how complete is still another story. Maybe the Navy has that info. To find out where, I'm guessing you'd either have to pull the ship's log from where he was buried and see if they have the Lat's and Longs noted, or possibly their service record.

 

You can do a search using the term "Buried At Sea", but it just gives you a list: https://www.abmc.gov/search/node/Buried%20at%20Sea

 

 

As far a weight, from the accounts I read, the deceased was usually put in a mattress cover and weighed down with a 5" shell.

 

As far a knowing where they are, sometimes the family was told "about" where there were when killed, not usually exactly where they were buried.

So they do have an idea of where.

 

Charlie

[268th C.A.]

The only one I can answer, During war time their sewn in canvas and usually weighted with a shell 5" most likely....I don't think records are kept as too were there dropped into the sea. Or how many for that matter. Its a simple service too commit them too the deep sea.

[Bluehawk]

Thank you.

 

[RustyCanteen]

I think the basic information was published in a couple of different manuals (maybe in the Hospital Corps manual) of the period. I know I have seen it mentioned, but it was fairly brief and more of a guideline if I remember correctly. As for keeping a record, I do believe someone posted a copy of a war diary or a copy of a file which recorded a burial at sea in WWII, and gave the time and coordinates. I have no idea where that thread is now, but I remember reading it since it wasn't something you see every day. Very sad stuff.

 

That aside, I too have heard of 5" shells (or sometimes it is said a projectile, which makes sense given the weight) carefully placed at the foot of the body, which had been placed in a canvas sack. Some accounts said it was like a mattress cover, but I'm not sure that would have been strong enough.

[Bluehawk]

Thank you.

[29navy]

I have a pamphlet somewhere in my collection outlining the procedures for Burials at Sea.

[RustyCanteen]

Thank you.

 

 

I found the thread I remembered http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/157266-original-photo-of-burial-at-sea-16-jul-1944/

 

If you scroll down to post #2 in the link, you will see the excerpt of a log showing the coordinates for the burial given.

[Bluehawk]

All, so much appreciation.

[Thor996]

wouldn't the war diaries on Fold3 have this information in them?

[RustyCanteen]

wouldn't the war diaries on Fold3 have this information in them?

 

War diaries can be really hit or miss on details, but if it was recorded in a diary for a specific ship, then yes fold 3 would probably have it.

[US82Bravo]

wouldn't the war diaries on Fold3 have this information in them?

 

Here are three examples of diaries from "fold3" from a search using key words 'buried at sea'. There were 900+ hits in war diaries.

 

These reports are from the same general time period and show some with location information and some without. Two also reference regs, instructional letters and manuals regarding procedures.

 

 

[US82Bravo]

#2

 

[US82Bravo]

#3

 

 

 

Larry

[Bluehawk]

wouldn't the war diaries on Fold3 have this information in them?

 

That would or could surely be one place to search, yes!

 

How fantastic that the coordinates are included!

 

https://www.familysearch.org/blog/en/fold3-source-military-records/

[Bluehawk]

One assumes that Merchant Mariners have their own registry of some sort.

 

Were there instances of U.S. regular military being lost at sea aboard Merchant Marine vessels in war time when there might have been an overlap in records?

[29navy]

Just out of curiosity, are you looking for a specific burial at sea? or is it just a generic question?

[Bluehawk]

Just out of curiosity, are you looking for a specific burial at sea? or is it just a generic question?

What got me going on this idea was the thought that our military burials at sea, unlike at Arlington and other formal cemeteries, have no markers for families to return to, for remembrance. Yet, our sailors are there, somewhere, in the depths of probably every sea on earth.

[29navy]

While it is true that there is no specific place to go to, or even harder to get to even if you knew the spot, in essence the entire ocean is their grave marker. I know, a little esoteric (?). Not much different than like for the air forces, whose planes went out and never came back and no trace of them was found. But there are the names on the memorial walls. What some families did was to put a memorial marker in their family plots to memorialize them and give them a spot to remember and honor them.

[Bluehawk]

This is reassuring... I'd forgotten about the many many memorials.

 

Not completely sure why this matter has entered and entered my thoughts for so many decades. I suppose it is the mystery, one might say, of what our seafaring military faces, endures, sacrifices - in what can quickly become a war environment which nature makes so unforgiving, and silent. Certain episodes - such as the USS Indianapolis, Pearl Harbor, the Thresher and Scorpion... so many many many more in our history, impossible to imagine the personal experiences of our sailors.

 

As I've posted on USMF in the past, the VERY first American military book i read as a child was a biography of John Paul Jones. It must have made a greater impression on me than imagined at the time...

 

Thank you to all who have had forbearance with my naive line of inquiry.

While it is true that there is no specific place to go to, or even harder to get to even if you knew the spot, in essence the entire ocean is their grave marker. I know, a little esoteric (?). Not much different than like for the air forces, whose planes went out and never came back and no trace of them was found. But there are the names on the memorial walls. What some families did was to put a memorial marker in their family plots to memorialize them and give them a spot to remember and honor them.

 

[Dave]

1. How many wartime burials at sea have occurred during our military history?

2. Is there any complete or even slightly accurate official record of the exact or approximate nautical coordinates of those many many many burials?

3. When the sailor or Marine or Coastie or Merchant Marine (and other) is delivered over the side, what kind of weight is put in to keep them at the bottom?

4. Since there can, consequently, be NO headstone or visual memorial for them, how is family to know where they are?

 

 

First, no need to apologize for feel uncomfortable for asking about this. It's a fact of life...people are killed during combat operations and they have to be removed from the vessel to continue operations. That in no way demeans who they were or their sacrifice...but the mission overrides the ability to retain their remains onboard (and honestly, it's a health concern, even when they are stored in a cold storage...)

 

To take a stab at your questions from my point of view:

 

1. This is an unanswerable question. You may be able to get close, as the vast majority only happened during WW2. I don't have the reference with me, but the Navy Medical Corps history of WW2 may have the answer (there's tons of information in those books, and they are downloadable online). However, even with that, I doubt a solid number will ever come up. Writing my books on Purple Hearts, it amazed me that even "foundational" references couldn't give a straight number of casualties for given operations. One would think - you have X amount of troops going into combat, and X going out...but that's not how it works, making it much more difficult to do these calculations.

 

2. As has already been mentioned, these may or may not have been recorded in the ship's deck log. And the deck logs aren't a complete history...ships in heavy combat operations may have done burials at sea, and then were later sunk themselves...so no records exist. Also, what about the small ships, like landing craft, that were used for burials at sea during the island fighting in the PTO? No deck logs on those that were retained, so all of that information is gone. Today, if a burial at sea is conducted (we call it a "BAS") the locations are put in the deck log, marked on a chart, etc. There's a whole procedure of how to properly mark the location for documentation. The Merchant Marine deck logs are kept in the National Archives in NYC. They should have the notations of crew (Navy and civilian) and where they were buried.

 

3. I agree with the others...5" shell, or anything else that's heavy. 5" guns were the most ubiquitous heavy weapons on the ships, but most anything will work. The last thing you want is a body to float...that's very, very bad (especially when you put a coffin over the side and it floats...bad...)

 

4. Pretty much already answered this...sadly, there's not a way. Not at least during WW2. There are procedures now, but if ever got into a blue-water confrontation today and a ship had to bury crew at sea, the best that could be done is a deck log entry. That may or may not be available to the families immediately due to OPSEC concerns. They may have to wait a decade or more to find out when it's declassified.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Dave

[Bluehawk]

Deeply, humbling.

 

[Bluehawk]

[patches]

There was that sequence in Victory at Sea, I always felt a very poignant and moving scene, a burial at sea in the form of a wrecked fighter plane with it's pilot inside being heaved over the side, would assume from this that the pilot either was killed on landing as his plane cracked up, or died a bit later from wounds and or injuries.

 

Would anyone care to see if this is on YT,? tried a bit but wasn't finding this.