one piece camouflage coveralls in Normandy?

[ken88]

Hi,

 

I just bought a one piece camouflage coverall (frogskin). I hesitated to buy it as I wasn't sure they were also used in the ETO, but the prices of these are still surprisingly fair so I decided to get it.

 

To me it would make sense they were briefly used in Normandy, at least in limited quantities, aside from the two piece suits. I can definitely imagine armored personnel wearing these coveralls there and then.

 

On a French site someone has claimed that there is a picture of a POW wearing a camouflage coverall, somewhere in Normandy. There is a lot of photographic evidence showing the two piece camouflage uniform in use, particularly 2nd AD related pictures, but what about the coveralls?

 

It's said that there's a picture on page 31 in the French book 7 juin - 19 août 1944 La bataille de Normandie (Heimdal) of a soldier wearing it.

 

I don't have this book, but if anyone on here would have it, would it be possible to confirm it's true? Even one picture would suggest they were used in limited numbers in the summer of 1944.

 

I've attached a picture of a 12th armored member on a Harley, showing that the coverall was indeed used by armored personnel, but where and when was this photo taken? I'm guessing it was taken in England or the States during training. If that's the case, one could assume they were used in combat as well (by 12th armored personnel no less).

 

Edit: just to be clear, the 12th AD didn't arrive in France in time for the fighting in Normandy.

 

Thanks in any case

Ken

 

[Frogskin7]

Some were also used in the PTO.

[earlymb]

PTO use is established, but as far as I know a few coveralls MIGHT have been used by USMC detachements aboard the USN ships during D-Day. Even in the PTO their use was limited.

 

Their main historical relevance is their use in the Netherlands East-Indies between 1945 and 1950 I think.

[hbtcoveralls]

All evidence is that the camo coveralls were NOT used in the ETO

 

Photos showing camo coveralls in use, not in the PTO, are all attributable to training use in the US

 

There is only a few documented photos of camo coveralls at a British Sniper training base being tested, but they were not adopted

 

The 2 piece camos were used in Normandy and their use is well documented

 

Tom Bowers

[carbinephalen]

Here is a nice shot of the 2nd Armored Div in Normandy.

 

Not sure how to tell if they are one piece or two piece camo HBTs.....

 

[Beau-Brummel]

I think the photo you’re referring to is actually a propaganda shot purportedly showing a german sniper. He’s wearing a one piece and haS an Enfield rifle . Will see if I can find it.

[pathfinder505]

I actually have two of the one piece camo suits brought back by two different ETO vets. One of the vets was in a Tank Destroyer Bn

[patches]

Here's a fantastic topic from 2008 on all this.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13990-us-tankers-in-camo/

[Salvage Sailor]

I posted these many, many moons ago on a forgotten topic. Screen capture from a Signal Corps film - Forward Observers in Normandy

[hbtcoveralls]

I posted these many, many moons ago on a forgotten topic. Screen capture from a Signal Corps film - Forward Observers in Normandy

2nd Armored Division troops, photo taken near Barenton France, the full sequence shows the M-8 Gun motor Carriages shelling German positions near Barenton and the Signal Corps photographer identifies them as 2nd Armored at the beginning of the footage.

 

2nd Armored troops were equipped exclusively with 2 piece HBT camo not the coveralls

 

Tom Bowers

[ken88]

I actually have two of the one piece camo suits brought back by two different ETO vets. One of the vets was in a Tank Destroyer Bn

 

Nice! Do you happen to have any information on the other veteran? Especially the unit he was in?

 

In some pictures it's indeed hard to tell whether the men are wearing one or two piece uniforms, but I think we can say that the vast majority of the guys in the 2nd armored division/41st AIR wore the two piece uniform. Most pictures clearly show part of the jacket being worn over the trousers. I guess the two buttons on the chest and hip pockets would be the only thing that would suggest we are dealing with coveralls.

 

On the other hand, there seem to be some clues, in this case downright evidence, that the one piece coveralls saw action in the ETO, albeit in very small numbers. This is exactly what I was thinking and hoping for.

 

I think it's safe to say most of these would have been used by tank-driving/operating armored personnel. There are indications these could have been worn by some men in the 12th armored division long after the Normandy landings.

 

Of course, the general consensus should be that these coveralls weren't regulatory, if that's even the right word, but it's definitely nice to know they were worn by some.

 

As a side note, I've seen the two piece camouflage uniform being worn by someone in the 2nd infantry division as well.

 

Cheers

[earlymb]

I don't think you can even say they were used in very small numbers in Normandy? At best, if they were used at all it was by a few individuals at most. For a correct portrayal you will need the 2-piece suit.

[ken88]

I don't think you can even say they were used in very small numbers in Normandy? At best, if they were used at all it was by a few individuals at most. For a correct portrayal you will need the 2-piece suit.

 

I know. The use of the 2-piece uniform is well documented. I happen to have the 2-piece suit as well, so I'm not really after an accurate portrayal. Please let's just forget about the two-piece camouflage uniforms for a second. My main interest is finding out if these one-piece coveralls were used in the ETO (Normandy or after). Given that, as we know now, at least 2 different individuals wore them, for me is enough evidence that they were indeed used in combat in Europe (by at least two individuals). However, if someone comes on here and proves that no less than two different veterans used these in the ETO (assuming pathfinder505 has provenance and information on the veterans), I think it's fair to say that it is possible that more than 2 individuals will have worn these in the ETO. Exactly how many men could have worn these, of course, is pure speculation without more evidence. Could be 2, could be 100, or maybe even more. We just don't know. Perhaps it's not too far fetched to assume that these two cases, as a sample, means that more of these coveralls were worn.

 

I mean, what are the chances that someone on here would own the only two coveralls used in combat in the ETO? I hope this doesn't come across as wishful thinking since I just bought a camouflaged coverall myself, but more as logical reasoning. I know the general belief is that no camouflaged coveralls were used in the ETO, so I'm open to every opinion. However, since we haven't seen combat pictures actually showing these being worn, also doesn't mean that they weren't used. Photographic evidence is good evidence but should in no case be used to disprove anything or establish a certain opinion. Needless to say, the number of troops present in the ETO there and then is far greater than the number of pictures taken. So photographic evidence isn't always representable.

 

Please consider the fact that of the pictures you are seeing on the internet, the vast majority is showing armored infantry, instead of actual tankers. There are very little pictures of actual tankers taken during the Normandy campaign, let alone of 2nd AD tankers, and there's therefore little chance of finding photographic evidence showing these coveralls in use. As I've said in my opening post, there apparently is a picture of a prisoner wearing a camouflaged coverall on page 31 of the French book 7 juin -19 août 1944 / La bataille de Normandie. I was actually hoping to get this confirmed with this thread, but I guess not a lot of French collectors will be reading this. I could indeed buy the book, but not without making sure it has what I'm looking for.

 

Hoping this thread will land more information, though.

 

Thanks in any case

Ken

[pathfinder505]

Ken

I will post more information this evening. One of the camo suits came from an estate sale and the other direct from the vet.

Robert

[Jumpin Jack]

I have the one-piece coverall belonging to Sgt. Vedder B. Driscoll, 87th Inf. Division in the ETO as well as a photo of him wearing the uniform. Jack

[pararaftanr2]

Ken,

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if we use "logical reasoning" , we have to consider that the two suits in pathfinder505's collection may very well have come home with ETO vets, but were not necessarily used in combat in Normandy. They might have been issued for training Stateside and not have seen any at all use afterwards.

​Regards, Paul

 

 

[ken88]

@pathfinder505: thanks!

@Jumpin Jack: interesting! Feel free to share.

@pararaftanr2: I agree Paul. Good point!

 

Meanwhile, I've managed to find the picture that is in the French book I was referring to.

 

You're seeing an SS-soldier apparently wearing what could be the camouflage coverall. That or he's wearing the jacket tucked into the trousers.

 

 

Happy Christmas to all...

 

Ken

[pathfinder505]

I think the two suits that I have were obtained after Normandy and not stateside. The 87th suit that jack has was probably picked up after Normandy since they arrived just before the bulge. The suit that I have that belonged to the TD vet was a late war unit. The other one I have belonged to an officer who was in the Mediterranean and was later at the battle of the bulge.

[ken88]

I think the two suits that I have were obtained after Normandy and not stateside. The 87th suit that jack has was probably picked up after Normandy since they arrived just before the bulge. The suit that I have that belonged to the TD vet was a late war unit. The other one I have belonged to an officer who was in the Mediterranean and was later at the battle of the bulge.

 

That is very interesting pathfinder505.

 

One of the Ospry Men at Arms books claims that the one-piece coveralls were quote 'tested' by the 2nd armored division in Sicily. Apparently they were deemded unsatisfactory, given that they resembled German waffen SS camouflage, were inconvenient when nature called and caused uncomfortable heating for some (in warmer climates).

 

I'll see if I can find anything.

 

In the meantime, here's some pretty rare footage of 2nd armored personnel wearing more camouflage.

 

 

Ken

[Legion72]

Brother Ken,

The picture posted showing an "SS Sniper" garbed in a US Army one piece camouflage coverall, was originally pictured in Peter Senichs' book The German Sniper , published in the early 1980's. I recently sold my copy on eBay so I am unable to give you further information, however the book is for sale on Amazon and eBay. Please note that the picture is staged, postwar, and a blatant fake! In the book, there is a series of four pictures, depicting this "capture of an SS Sniper." The entire scene is so absurd no one with a rudimentary knowledge of WWII would fall for it. I was given a copy of the book around 1982 when i was the book review editor for Soldier of Fortune magazine. I phoned the author and told him the pictures were fake. Besides wearing a US camo coverall , there is no camo cover on the helmet which is deliberately turned towards the camera to display the SS decal, no individual equipment, and most of all, no sniper rifle, the most prized of all souvenirs. i need go no further. Don't waste your money on the French publication, the authors show an obvious lack of scholarship. One last juicy little tid-bit of WWII info concerning the camo coverall. The troops called it a ZOOT SUIT. A nickname given to a 1940's young men's "hip" style of baggy clothing.

Hope this helps, and Merry Christmas and God bless.

Pax Christi,

BILL Brooks

[patches]

That foto of the "SS Sniper" I do believe is floating around somewhere on USMF, but I can't imagine where to look, tried but nothing came up.

[ken88]

Thanks guys

 

I appreciate the information. Apparently that photo is of no further use. I must admit it has an unnatural aspect, but I honestly couldn't tell without someone pointing this out.

 

I did some more digging last night and came across one photo which I think is pretty interesting. It was taken in Sicily in 1943 and may well be evidence of the one-piece camouflage suit used in actual combat. Unfortunately the photo isn't of the best quality, much pixellation when zoomed in on, but I do think that I'm looking at frogskin camouflage nevertheless. If this is correct, it would indeed mean that the suits were indeed tested in the MTO during the invasion of Sicily and that the 2nd armored division was given or wanted to complete this task. Perhaps criticism will heave lead to the development of the two piece camouflage suit, which was then tested in Normandy, again by elements of the 2nd armored division. It is my best guess that the use of these in the MTO/ETO was an allied attempt at replicating the effect of German waffen-SS camouflage in the field.

 

I will try to find other pictures, but this one may mean a small breakthrough in this investigation. Camouflage? Pixellation? Dirt? You be the judge

 

Thanks again

 

Ken

 

[pathfinder505]

Here is a picture of the camo suit that belonged to a member of the 787th Tank Battalion. It came from his estate sale along with numerous other items. I think I originally said he was in a TD unit in error, as I was going from memory at the time.

[pathfinder505]

Camo Suit No. 2 belonged to an officer who was in Sicily and later at the Bulge. He said he helped set up the airborne training center in sicily. This came direct from the vet. Also, have his airborne jump suit. I have ordered his records and hope they will give more details.

[ken88]

Really nice pathfinder505. It's interesting that the second suit was maybe used in Sicily, since all my research was pointing in that direction as well. These suits were probably the only frogskin camouflage army uniforms available at the time. If I'm not mistaking the two-piece camouflaged hbt uniform set was not being used yet. Beautiful coveralls. Thanks for sharing!

 

Ken