Winchester M1 Carbine/Garand Question

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Was not sure whether this really belonged under "What's It Worth", because my question doesn't really related to worth.

 

What is the likelihood at this point of finding either a Carbine or Garand [particularly the Carbine] that is Winchester wartime production, all matching, and did not undergo any sort of rebuild?

 

Thanks very much,

 

~VFG

[IKEsaysGO44]

VFG,

They are getting extremely hard to find, but they are out there and prices are through the roof! For example, here is a 1942 Springfield M1 Garand, all correct, not modified or rebuilt, for sale (http://csarms.com/scripts/csa_search_results.asp?NAV=35&Items=All), at $3K. So again, they are out there - but getting difficult to find and afford.

 

I hope this helps.

Andy

[ViewfinderGyrene]

VFG,

They are getting extremely hard to find, but they are out there and prices are through the roof! For example, here is a 1942 Springfield M1 Garand, all correct, not modified or rebuilt, for sale (http://csarms.com/scripts/csa_search_results.asp?NAV=35&Items=All), at $3K. So again, they are out there - but getting difficult to find and afford.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Andy

 

Thanks for the input Andy, though I am specifically interested in finding Winchester examples...

 

When I was in middle school the Garands were still under 1k lol

[ViewfinderGyrene]

My follow up question would be what is the going rate for an all matching Winchester Carbine? That is the one I'm most interested in finding one of these days...

[damcon3]

The last carbine I saw sell

 

Check out what I found on GunBroker.com!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/717338294

[everforward]

FWIW, the Garand on the CS Arms site has the wrong stock on it...... an E McF cartouche was for certain 1943 period rifles

[72psb]

Yep,the last one that the gun shop I work at sold for $3,500.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

The last carbine I saw sell

 

Check out what I found on GunBroker.com!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/717338294

 

Well that is a stunner for the price, sincerely a beautiful piece. That's the quality I'm hunting for. If you know of any like that in collections that might come loose, please PM me [not to turn this into a Wanted Ad]....

 

~VFG

[doyler]

Never can figure out why stuff on GB sells so high and if its the rate people are paying the same item will sit unsold at a show unsold.

I recall a seller having a Winchester here for $1600 and not sold when I saw it back in June.Has it to a few shows a year and it sits..Said it was"correct" but that could mean "restored".Also sales here for real nice guns seem slow or very difficult at least.

 

Granted early models are hard to find.But there are lots of carbines to be had

 

I bought a Winchester carbine about 3 years ago for less than $700.Buddy found it walking through a Tulsa gunshow being sold by another walking the show.The seller wasn't getting much for offers from dealers.Its a mix master but non import marked.Reciever and Barrel are Winchester and really haven't looked to see if anything else is correct to it as its a government refurb and doesn't matter to me.I bought it as a fairly priced rifle.It came with original sling, 3 30 round mags,4 15 round mags and a repro case.I sold the case for $20 and two of the 30 round mags and in it for even less than I paid.

[everforward]

FWIW, the Garand on the CS Arms site has the wrong stock on it...... an E McF cartouche was for certain 1943 period rifles

Im making a correction on my post, the E McF stamp is correct on the Garand at CS Arms....it is fairly early in the run of M1s marked as such, Id say July 1942 or so....I have a summer 1943 Garand (140xxxx) that is also an E McF rifle, but near the end of Earl McFarlands tenure as Inspector of Ordnance.

[Dirt Detective]

Any WWII unmolested Carbine is getting tough to find...in great condition it would be $2500 +

[oldfireguy]

I've been collecting and selling Garands for a long time. When I was in Jr, High (no middle school then) you could pick one up for under $100. I think DCM was selling them for around the same price. 6 years ago I had a co-worker approach me with a WRA wanting me to sell it for him. My jaw dropped when I saw it. It was the only unmolested, untouched, as issued Garand I have ever seen from any maker. The previous owner was a Army Officer during WW2 and was given the rifle as a presentation piece. It went into a safe and stayed there until he died and my friend was given it to sell. I sent photos to a few guys who have written books on the rifles to have it appraised and the appraisal was $4K and up. I ended up selling it to a collector in Calif. for $6K. It was a museum piece and for me, a once in a lifetime opportunity to study it and sadly sell it because I wanted it but couldn't justify the expense.

 

If that's the type of rifle you are looking for you can expect to pay that type of price. WRA's are the most faked rifle out there so make sure you study some books and know what you are buying when you pull the trigger.

[Warrantw5]

New guy, but I love Garands and Carbines. EMcF stamped stocks were used from late June 42 until about October 43. There are three variations that can identify the time frame they were used, so the CSARMs stock may or may not be correct.

 

I have a very early Winchester carbine with I cut stock and spring tube receiver that I picked up a couple of years ago at a gun show. I think I paid about $2k. It appears to be original and in very nice condition. I was happy to get it for that.

 

Original Winchester Garands are usually more expensive since there were fewer made. I would think a nice original Winchester Garand would be between $4k-$10k. I have an original WIN-13, but I bought it several years ago.

[Av8er]

Keep in mind that the whole Carbine and Garand market is a matter of supply and demand which has driven up prices as demand has exceeded supply. The Garand Collectors Association has recently reported that the 80,000+ Garands sitting in South Korea may very likely be coming to the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) for sale in the near future. The South Korean government had previously intended to sell them to an importer in the US. Those sales were previously blocked by the Obama administration. The Garands in Korean possession may actually include some unissued rifles as they have been stored in the special sealed armory storage cans that hold ten rifles. A random sampling of the stored guns found a number of the sample were new and/or Arsenal reconditioned and never issued. Supposedly, the details are being worked out where the Army would take possession of the guns in South Korea and ship them to CMP with the CMP reimbursing the Army for the shipping costs. You can bet that if CMP can get the Garands, then they can also get access to the 600,000+ Carbines that are also possessed by South Korea in the future. Carbines were returned from Greece along with the Garands the last time guns were returned to CMP from overseas. If this happens the whole collector market will be in for a huge price adjustment.

[everforward]

FWIW, the last unissued ‘canned’ WW2 ‘44 Garands auctioned by the CMP back in around 2011-2012 went for $8K or better....most of not all were in flat-new condition.

[Av8er]

The other thing to keep in mind is, what do you consider wartime production, or unrestored? Even the CMP swaps parts to sell “correct grade” wartime issue guns. Many collectors also swap parts to bring guns back to their correct wartime issue. You have no way of knowing if a gun is original issue or has been restored at some point. They can claim the gun is original and demand a premium price, but there is no way you could guarantee that the claim is true.

[Warrantw5]

There is a "correct" Winchester Garand on the CMP auction that is up to $5600.00. The breech is parkerized, so I wouldn't really call that correct. Will probably be close to $7k when the auction ends.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

The other thing to keep in mind is, what do you consider wartime production, or unrestored? Even the CMP swaps parts to sell “correct grade” wartime issue guns. Many collectors also swap parts to bring guns back to their correct wartime issue. You have no way of knowing if a gun is original issue or has been restored at some point. They can claim the gun is original and demand a premium price, but there is no way you could guarantee that the claim is true.

 

Very good point, I'm grateful for all the tips on this. It may be a good bit in the future, so that gives me to time save and pay for the quality.

 

I've had the good fortune to see some truly "out of the woodwork" untouched examples in other collections, but as expected those aren't coming loose any time soon.

 

To me, complete means all the main parts which have serial numbers that should match are in fact matching, and the finer parts which were not s/n'd would be of the same manufacturer.

 

I've also talked to enough family members of these veterans who end up mentioning that their father/husband/grandfather/uncle ended up being able to keep their service weapon. I can hold out some degree of hope that I might turn someone up like that in the future with a Winchester example.

 

~VFG

[ViewfinderGyrene]

The other thing to keep in mind is, what do you consider wartime production, or unrestored? Even the CMP swaps parts to sell “correct grade” wartime issue guns. Many collectors also swap parts to bring guns back to their correct wartime issue. You have no way of knowing if a gun is original issue or has been restored at some point. They can claim the gun is original and demand a premium price, but there is no way you could guarantee that the claim is true.

 

That did occur to me, I don't imagine that the example I find would come from CMP, tend to think I'd have better luck finding one unmessed with through a collector who may not be a WWII or military weapons collector, but one of firearms/Winchester firearms that sought the same quality I do through word-of-mouth or as I said above, finding a family member of a veteran with such a specimen. Thank you for the points and hope I further clarified what "wartime unrestored" means in my mind.

[Orlando]

There is a huge difference between a correct rifle and a original rifle and the price will reflect it. A WRA Garand with a correct parts( was corrected by someone) i not that hard to find. A original unmolested WRA rifle is going to be a rare item. Also how will you know its actually original and not corrected?

[ViewfinderGyrene]

There is a huge difference between a correct rifle and a original rifle and the price will reflect it. A WRA Garand with a correct parts( was corrected by someone) i not that hard to find. A original unmolested WRA rifle is going to be a rare item. Also how will you know its actually original and not corrected?

 

Doubtful that I would unless it had 1-remarkable paperwork trail or 2-came from the family of the veteran to whom it was issued. Like I said I would be content if the serial numbered components were matching, all the smaller workings I agree it would be nearly impossible to know...

[Orlando]

There is only one serial number on the Garand and it is on the receiver heel, the rest are drawing numbers. lso not all parts are marked with drawing numbers. Do you know how to identify them as WRA??

What I am getting at is you need to do alot of homework or you may get taken

You wont touch a all corrected WRA for less than $3500 and up depending on what year it is

[ViewfinderGyrene]

There is only one serial number on the Garand and it is on the receiver heel, the rest are drawing numbers. lso not all parts are marked with drawing numbers. Do you know how to identify them as WRA??

What I am getting at is you need to do alot of homework or you may get taken

You wont touch a all corrected WRA for less than $3500 and up depending on what year it is

 

After reading various other threads I understand that there are proof mark "W"s on WRA mfr'd parts. Some of those who responded gave me excellent reference book advice via PM.

[Orlando]

Not sure who gave you that info but its incorrect, there are no W proofs on WRA Garand parts

[doyler]

I have a WW2 Sprinfield rifle.Bought it about 15 years ago.Came out of a local large estate gun collection.Has serial number and dated barrel that corresponds to later 1943.Appeared to have a couple outward signs of other early features so I bought it and was happy.Showed it to a friend and he had to "gauge" it Said I don't think I would shoot it.I asked whys that?He said ME is close to 4+/- and chamber is 3.5+ or so.I said cool...that just tells me its been together for a long time and most likely original.I then was in contact over a few times with the guy who was helping sell the estate as he said he had the leger from the owner with is papers and notes.The collector had been an accountant and was fairly regimented at taking notes and keeping records.At a local gunshow the guy brought in the leger and showed me an entry with serial number and date of 968 with purchase price of $80 for a GarandM1.

 

I knew the stock had been sanded and then oiled as this collector did it with all his military rifles.Other than that it looked as it matched up and I didn't give it much thought.Two years ago I took it to a guy I know who owns around 65 garands and buys and sells them.I was interested in having a nice marked stock and he has them for sale.He was very interested in the rifle and I told him the story.I even let him take it home over night from the show so he could get a good look at it.Next morning he walks in and I go to his table.First comment he made was"Do you want to sell it"?I delined and stated I wanted to buy a better stock to have with it.He then said I will tell you what you have.He went through every part and said it fell in the parameters of the time frame of manufacture.Even still had the uncut operating rod and short of pulling out the hammer from the trigger group it was in his opinion it was a totally unmessed with WW2 rifle less the stock neing sanded.He then asked if the stock was for sale or trade on another.I said no I wanted to keep it.You can see a faint outline of the stamp but nothing is clear.He said the stock fit the Sprinfield profile as well.Told him about the buddy who gauge tested it and he just laughed and said shoot it.Run some round through it and check the brass.He said if your shooting around a 100 yards or so don't sweat it but at 250 or so he said you will notice floaters.I said I'm not going to shoot it but thanks for the advice as I have others I can shoot.

 

He did make me an offer and said if he owned it he would replace the barrel for a better shooter and then put it out for sale.He even offered to find me a better barrel and I declined.I like it just as it sets and to me its what it is.