WW2 USMC helmet

[pararaftanr2]

The "artistic" view:

[cmaher55]

 

 

I agree.

 

 

I think most USMC collectors have noticed the "1st pattern" covers are a lot easier to obtain than the version with slits, and more often appear with the EGA stamp. The best true untouched WWII USMC bringback helmets I've seen always had slits.

 

The invasion of Japan theory is definitely worth considering, and in my opinion a lot more likely than theory that these were issued all along WWII. Perhaps in the 1945-1950 period they simply needed more covers, stranger things have happened, like the depot made post-WWII shovel covers that everyone thought were late WWII issue until some turned up with cutter tags proving otherwise. There was a very similar debate about those as well.

 

This thread now has 90+ replies and for all the collectors who believe these covers were worn during WWII, none of them have been able to provide any really clear photos. What we do know for sure without any doubt is that the type of "1st pattern" helmet cover the OP purchased was used in Korea. We also know with absolute certainty the type of cover with slits was used in WWII.

 

When I first replied to this thread I said what I still absolutely believe, it is safer to go with a helmet cover that has slits than the "1st pattern" if you're doing a WWII impression. I'm not surprised the "1st pattern" is so popular because it is much more common to find on the loose and resides in many collections.

 

-Steve

 

Actually in my 40 years or so of collecting, wrong Steve, I have had way more luck obtaining original, untouched M1 helmets with slit covers than the non slit covers. Like 2 to 1 ratio........ But I am in California, near the west coast USMC bases and training centers......... on the coast, what would I know....? Maybe it is different for you up in Canada where maybe there are absolutely no USMC helmets to be had except on ebay maybe..? You still have not posted any USMC covered helmets from your collection here......... Show them if you got em....... Otherwise, I don't think you have one or have ever had one in hand to study. But you are entitled to your opinion I guess. Lots of pictorial evidence out there for you to see. We can lead you to water but we can not make you drink. Would love to see some pics of your advanced and pure WW2 USMC covered lid collection...? I'll be waiting..... Chris

[Steve1987]

Actually I would mind..... That would be a lot of work and I don't have the time and don't need to prove it to you or anyone else..... Plenty of folks here willing to post you up some knowledge in pics... I have many books on the subject and thousands of pictures in my archives and could post plenty but you are young and you can do your own homework. This is how you will learn and become a knowledgeable or "advanced" collector down the road, and I always hated that word "advanced" collector but I will use it here in this case because it fits... And how long you been on the planet and collecting helmets, lots through your hands, is usually a very good indicator of your knowledge, not always, but usually a pretty good indicator. Same goes with vintage cars, stamps, old guns, and ancient Greek and Roman coins, building fences, and staying married to the same woman for 30 years........ Oh, and WW2 Katana's too.... I have way too many hobbies... And I don't need a guy named "Steve" born in 1987 telling me 1st pattern covers were not used in WW2. Steve can think that, and so can you, and you can place that bit of self imposed knowledge along with all your star wars action figures on your dresser in your Moms's basement and call it a night. As I said, been here a long time, been collecting for 40 years or so now... And in 1987, when Steve was born, I was out of college and had a pretty good helmet collection going already. In short, I always learned way more by listening to folks that had 20, 30, 40 years or more of life experience on me, been to war, seen what I had not seen, than I did challenging them. Turns out, they were always right.......! Sometimes it took me a dozen years to realize that......! Lessons learned. But Happy helmet collecting and have a Merry Christmas..! Regards, Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

Your assumptions are quite amusing, I particularly find the part about star wars actions figures and living in my moms basement pretty funny (Despite being very incorrect!) . It seems you now have nothing of value to contribute here since you're too lazy to provide any actual photos, instead you only have time to insult people over the internet over things as silly as age. I prefer to come here and talk about USMC collecting in a polite manner, and debunk the myths and fakes, and if someone has something of value to share I don't care how old they are. I have seen collectors as young as 14 years old provide some extremely valuable information to this forum. I respect those who have been in the hobby longer than me but I am wiser than to blindly follow someone like you.

 

For someone who is such a self-proclaimed USMC helmet cover expert of 40 years this thread from 2015 is really interesting:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/251414-usmc-first-pattern-cover-from-ebay/

 

I think it goes to show that perhaps you're still discovering new things about USMC helmet covers like everyone else, and things aren't always what they initially appear to be.

 

You are asking to see my collection but you won't contribute any crystal clear photos of "1st pattern" USMC covers in use. I have already stated, I do not buy nor do I currently own "1st pattern" covers. I did own one, and sold it years ago prior to examining pump 150's excellent thread and following this topic. At one time I also believed they were a common WWII issue USMC cover. My opinion has changed over time, and I never pursued any more of them. We know the type with slits was used during WWII, so there is no need for photos of those. No photos of my collection would be of any benefit to this topic.

 

Para: I respect your contributions to this thread, I just don't think those photos are clear enough to prove it either way. The angle of the last photo really isn't good for what we're looking for, and sometimes the slits are placed fairly high up and angled sharply to the rear when mounted. There is crystal clear photos of the "1st pattern" in Korea. To prove beyond any doubt these saw use during WWII I personally would like to see something of similar quality from WWII. That is what everyone who participated in the original thread in 2013 has been looking for since then.

 

Regards,

-Steve

[juodonnell2012]

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/98460-iwo-jima-vet-m1-helmet-and-grouping/ here is an identified iwo jima grouping. The helmet has a no slit cover.

[pararaftanr2]

juodonnell2012,

Nice job finding that old thread and congratulations to Mike for a killer grouping. It would be pretty hard to argue with that example, but I suspect some may still try.

Regards, Paul

 

Front view:

[pararaftanr2]

3/4 th side view:

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

Too much focus and effort is being put on character, who's an expert and who's a noob, and not enough on the covers themselves.

 

I don't share Steve1987's belief that these are post WWII, I think they are late WWII.

 

I would also like to point out it's impossible to prove a negative, nobody has a picture of every single helmet cover in WWII, so it is impossible to show proof that slit less covers didn't exist in 1943 or 1944 or WWII or whatever. All it takes is a single undeniable picture of one to prove it existed at that time.

 

As much as I'd like to buy reference books I simply don't have the money. There are books that cost more than the centrepieces of my collection.

 

 

[Raidercollector]

Here is my 2 cents, I was reading on the movie Sands of iwo Jima ,Staring John Wayne, And was reading about how they where saying the Marine corps where down big time after WW2, And that he was making the movie to bring back up the marine corps,. And the movie did ,At one tine it sounded like they where going to Make the corps all most obsolete.after the war from what I have read. So the uniforms and helmet covers are all left overs from the war that they used. That was only 4 years after the war. Which I have shown photos in earlier posts, So we know for sure they had them in 1949. So I agree that they would be late war . In till some comes up with a clear photo in WW2. I have viewed lots of war Movies from Tarawa. And it does look like they had No slits. But very hard to prove it. I would suggest some members to go through the War clips on Tarawa on YOU TUBE. You might see what I seen. But hard to prove. So As of now I will go with lat war.We are not all experts. I my self own all 3 types of the covers.I even have a KIA cover helmet from Iwo, But it has Slits.I do think they stopped putting the button holes in the covers at the near end of the war, Because they where in such demand for the invasion of Japan.And some where never used after the war, THat,s why you see so many mint ones.

 

Nick

[Blacksmith]

Basic question here: Why would the Marine Corps be stockpiling camo helmet covers for the invasion of mainland Japan? The planners knew the majority of the fighting would be in developed urban areas / cities. You want to look more like a brick, less like a bush.

 

I think some folks get ideas on the order of things, and then create stories to have it make sense.

 

Lastly, one of the most knowledgeable men I know on German helmets just turned 21. Another guy I'd consider an expert on Japanese rifles is in his 30s. Combing gray hair does not make you smarter. But what it should do is make you wise enough to treat everyone with respect.

[Government Issue]

I'm just going to bounce a couple ideas around about the covers I've been mulling over for a couple years now. We refer to the helmet covers as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd patterns with the 1st being the no slit, 2nd being the one with buttonholes around the helmet and the 3rd with added buttonholes on the flaps.

 

However, as has been pointed out both in this thread and the extensive one on the covers, the diagram from 1942 is of a "3rd pattern". Therefore, it is likely collectors have the order backward in relation to which type was produced first. If we think about this logistically, this makes sense. As the war progressed, companies constantly made equipment in the most cost efficient manner to expedite production. Naturally, this would entail the removal of the buttonholes on the ear flaps, then the overall deletion of the buttonholes from the covers. I can only imagine that this would make the manufacture of the covers much more rapid without having to do the specific machining to add the buttonhole foliage slits to each one.

 

Another reason for their deletion could simply be the lack of practical use. Out of the numerous combat photos from the Pacific, I can only think of around 5 that show marines using the foliage slits for their intended purpose. Even when used in this manner, it is glaringly apparent that the slits were downright inefficient and impractical for most of the combat zones.

 

There's been debate as to why their are foliage slits on the ear flaps of the legitimate 1st pattern, but I have another running theory about their use. I've heard people state that their may have been a drawstring to tighten the cover to the helmet, but I doubt this. I think their true purpose was to act as foliage slits when Marines would occasionally wear the covers with the slits out on the back to act as a sunshade. I've got screenshots from HD film from Tarawa, Bougainville, Saipan, and Guam that show that Marines regularly did this. In some of the episodes of the Pacific, Eugene Sledge does this as well. I can post pictures later today for reference.

[ArchangelDM]

I have a theory

What about the island settings ,

In the early campaigns the marines where faced with heavily wooded tropical areas , as the campaigns moved on the areas become more volcanic , and sandy.

 

Maybe as the terrain changed the USMC camos changed and the need for putting foliage on a volcanic island became not needed, hence the 3rd pattern without holes.

This would tie in the timeline , showing the button hole patterns being the first and the non slit version being the 3rd.

 

As we have seen on this thread , as with McDuffs amazing helmet , its a late war helmet with out slits.

 

Dean

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

If the slits in the flaps were for foliage when worn as a neck flap why would they be in all 6? Maybe so it doesn't matter what direction you put it on? And wouldn't the slits be going vertical instead of horizontal?

[Ray175INF]

That operation was projected to go well into 46 and possibly 47, They were literally stockpiling EVERYTHING for Operation Downfall across islands all over the pacific

 

If they were stockpiling something like Coca Colas at Espiritu Santo I have no reason not to believe there was a palette or two of replacement covers somewhere in one of the supply dumps in Brisbane, Saipan or Vanatua.

 

IMHO the theory of the slits being deleted to speed up production does make a lot of sense considering the sheer size and length of Downfall.

 

Ray

 

 

Basic question here: Why would the Marine Corps be stockpiling camo helmet covers for the invasion of mainland Japan? The planners knew the majority of the fighting would be in developed urban areas / cities. You want to look more like a brick, less like a bush.

 

I think some folks get ideas on the order of things, and then create stories to have it make sense.

 

Lastly, one of the most knowledgeable men I know on German helmets just turned 21. Another guy I'd consider an expert on Japanese rifles is in his 30s. Combing gray hair does not make you smarter. But what it should do is make you wise enough to treat everyone with respect.

[Pegasus6]

This topics never going to end, and likely not going to change anyones minds...

 

2 cents to continue to play devils advocate. And I agree there is a lot of "" Conjecture to placing stories to manufacturing processes. Some have proposed that no slits sped up production for the invasion of Japan. I propose as we know the specification from the depot had slits in 1942, but that a possible answer to no slits being first and not added due to the need for the covers to be produced right away in 1942 early 43. The slits would have slowed production/capacity. The USMC Expanded fast beyond the 2 Divisions it had standing in the beginning of the conflict which I believe ultimately grew to 5 by VE-Day. It would make just as much sense to reverse that story, and as supplies grew they were able to complicate the production. This rings just as true as the simplification In the early days production was ramping up and materials were needed... And for every piece of gear we simplified we can see more complicated ones. IE the 1903A3 simpler version of a 1903. But the sight on the M1 Carbine more complicated in the later model vs the flip peep of the first model...

 

Again seems to be a lot of character attacking. Lots of awesome photos posted by a lot of people, but everyone needs to consider reasons. Im in the it doesn't matter to me camp. I'll say it again, Type Slits no Slits + Mosquito net = WWII production. EGA shows up in Post Production and with the blue Anchors. Not saying some marines wouldn't stamp or pin an EGA on there. Again HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Marines running around the Pacific.... photos of not even 1% of them, groupings remaining not 1% of them.

 

Again no dog in this fight. I have 2 Type II's, 1 Mint, 1 Salty, 1 Mint Type I, and a 1953 stamped, just observations from the gallery.

 

-PEG6

[juodonnell2012]

Well theorywolf's grouping definitely places these covers at least on iwo jima. It is named with the rest of the grouping and the marine it belonged to as far as I know had no postwar service.

[aef1917]

I suspect that if people spent as much time doing archival research as they do speculating and arguing on the internet, this question would have been answered long ago. A quick search though RG 127 turns up some promising leads.

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

I suspect that if people spent as much time doing archival research as they do speculating and arguing on the internet, this question would have been answered long ago. A quick search though RG 127 turns up some promising leads.

I have plenty of time to look, just not sure where to.

[Ray175INF]

RG 127.13 Still Pictures 1870 thru 1981....?

I suspect that if people spent as much time doing archival research as they do speculating and arguing on the internet, this question would have been answered long ago. A quick search though RG 127 turns up some promising leads.

[cmaher55]

 

Hi Chris,

 

For someone who is such a self-proclaimed USMC helmet cover expert of 40 years this thread from 2015 is really interesting:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/251414-usmc-first-pattern-cover-from-ebay/

 

I think it goes to show that perhaps you're still discovering new things about USMC helmet covers like everyone else, and things aren't always what they initially appear to be.

 

Steve, I have probably sourced over a dozen complete USMC helmets, covers, etc from Ebay over the years. Also sourced many USMC helmets and covers locally in junk, shops, thrift shops, this forum, funky militaria shops here and there in CA. And yes, got a few turds in there as I stated previously in this thread. You don't get ahead and scoop the gems off Ebay unless you take a chance sometimes. That particular cover above looks great in the Ebay add exterior shot but then once you get it in hand you see the internal edge stitching is not good, a repro. That is why you post them up here if you are not sure. The cover in question is one of the better fakes with the double loop stitching on the brown side, hard to do. Most of the fakes have single stitching there. Oh, and I was out like $14 bucks I think..? And I keep those as fake references, I think I have 3 or 4 floating around the house, tagged fake and with the details why. A small reference library you might say.There are many makers of these fakes and they are getting better every year.

 

So again I ask you, are you going to show your USMC covered helmets to us...? If you don't have any that is fine, if you never had one in hand that is fine but it would lead to more credibility on your part that you actually collect these, have them in hand, and studied the fine details...

Critiquing and judging these helmets and their covers from internet pictures and books alone only gives you half the story at best.

 

Oh, and the Star Wars thing, I am just messing with you....! My adult sons, about your age probably, were going to see the new movie last night... They still have star wars figures here and there in their apartments and build the models still.... My generation was WW2 stuff, theirs is Star Wars stuff... I guess it depends on the era you grew up in. Regards, Chris

[aef1917]

If I were doing the research, I'd start with the correspondence files, especially ones relating to the Quartermaster's Department, such as General Correspondence 1940-1942. I'm not as familiar with USMC records as I am with other RGs, so that's just a starting point.

[Ray175INF]

 

 

http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/resource/065_mili.html

 

https://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/college-park/researcher-info.html

 

I have plenty of time to look, just not sure where to.

[Ray175INF]

Excellent, NARA at College Park, Maryland may have them, if anyone has time 1(301)837-3510

Good starting spot.

 

If I were doing the research, I'd start with the correspondence files, especially ones relating to the Quartermaster's Department, such as General Correspondence 1940-1942. I'm not as familiar with USMC records as I am with other RGs, so that's just a starting point.

[Government Issue]

This topics never going to end, and likely not going to change anyones minds...

 

2 cents to continue to play devils advocate. And I agree there is a lot of "" Conjecture to placing stories to manufacturing processes. Some have proposed that no slits sped up production for the invasion of Japan. I propose as we know the specification from the depot had slits in 1942, but that a possible answer to no slits being first and not added due to the need for the covers to be produced right away in 1942 early 43. The slits would have slowed production/capacity. The USMC Expanded fast beyond the 2 Divisions it had standing in the beginning of the conflict which I believe ultimately grew to 5 by VE-Day. It would make just as much sense to reverse that story, and as supplies grew they were able to complicate the production. This rings just as true as the simplification In the early days production was ramping up and materials were needed... And for every piece of gear we simplified we can see more complicated ones. IE the 1903A3 simpler version of a 1903. But the sight on the M1 Carbine more complicated in the later model vs the flip peep of the first model...

 

Again seems to be a lot of character attacking. Lots of awesome photos posted by a lot of people, but everyone needs to consider reasons. Im in the it doesn't matter to me camp. I'll say it again, Type Slits no Slits + Mosquito net = WWII production. EGA shows up in Post Production and with the blue Anchors. Not saying some marines wouldn't stamp or pin an EGA on there. Again HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Marines running around the Pacific.... photos of not even 1% of them, groupings remaining not 1% of them.

 

Again no dog in this fight. I have 2 Type II's, 1 Mint, 1 Salty, 1 Mint Type I, and a 1953 stamped, just observations from the gallery.

 

-PEG6

 

All excellent points. Another thing that would be a bit of a contradiction is why the 1953 covers were made with the buttonholes rather than without. Why would they be reintroduced after they had been deleted? Unless, they were making both covers at the same time during WWII. Could the slit covers be made from contracted companies and the non slit be ssmc depot made? Started with the buttonholes and then phased over to the non-buttonhole types, but produced both at the same time toward the end of the war. In a way similar to how the gas plugs for M1 rifles were made with single slot being the dominant and the cross poppet valves only coming in at the end although they had been in production since early 1944. This is all conjecture on my part and we'll never know unless we come across documentation. Hopefully, it will turn up.

[Frogskin7]

Iwo Jima

[Frogskin7]

Iwo Jima