Imperial Mark I Legit or Not

[capt14k]

I see there are two of these Imperial Mark I for sale on EBay right now. Both in Like New Condition. Both listed as original WWII. That immediately made me think they are not original.

 

https://m.ebay.com/itm/USA-WW-2-era-IMPERIAL-Mark-I-MK1-Fighting-Knife-parkerized-blade-leather-sheath-/172854298725

 

On the Imperial Tang Charts I could find I don't see where there is Imperial with a Crown Over the i over just U.S.A. there is an Imperial with Crown Over the i over PROV. USA 1946-56

 

However on page 7 of "Knives of the United States Military World War II" by Silvey it looks like it could be the same Tang Stamp.

 

In "U.S. Military Knives Book III" by Cole on page 79 he shows Imperial over U.S.A. but no Crown. Also shown is IMPERIAL over PROV R.I.

 

On the Imperial Tang Charts I found IMPERIAL over PROV. R.I. was used 1936-1952 however Cole doesn't show the period after PROV.

 

In "Military Knives a Reference Book" on page 42 it is stated that the Knives on page 79 in Cole's book are post war circa 1954. They also don't list Imperial as a manufacturer of the Mark I.

 

Very Confused.

 

 

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[dustin]

Here is how you undo that confusion. Disregard the first three references you mention, and just go with the fourth/last reference you have listed. Then all becomes quite clear. Cole erroneously classed these jet-pilot knives as Mark 1's many years, innocently. The pit falls to an error is that it sometimes gets repeated. Frank Trzaska unveiled the true identity to these pattern of knives and is what you see in Military Knives- A Reference Book. Imperial did not make Mark 1 knives during WWII.

Cole's book/s have been updated and consolidated in The Best of Cole, in there, the footnotes have been amended. The seller and you were/are operating on some outdated material, though the bulk is still relevant, just not about these knives. Military collecting and references books in ones library need to undergo updates much like operating software, always a joyous adventure!

There is going to be some members jumping in here before to long that will tell you much more about the in's and out's of the knife in question. Cherry example for sure.

[SKIPH]

Dustin nailed it! This knife is actually an Imperial Pilot's Knife, made in the 50s. This one has a straight guard, Imperial also made one with a bent guard which is identical to the M3 trench knife guards of WW2. These are nice little knives! But I have always felt they were somewhat delicate for survival use, which I feel lead to the eventual development of the later Jet Pilot Knives. The Buy Now price ($250) to me is a little steep, I'd bargain for a lower price, see what kind of deal you could both be happy with. The worst thing that can happen is he says, "NO". You have nothing to lose. SKIP

[sactroop]

The knife is MIL-K-8662 (AER). Besides Imperial, Camillus and Schrade Walton also made these for the Government. Another problem with ID'ing these knives is that both Imperial and Schrade ending up making commercial knives with the same blade pattern, so the MIL-K specification can be helpful in separating the G.I. from the commercial pieces.

 

[sactroop]

OBTW, I typed Walden not Walton, dang auto correct strikes again.

[DRE66]

Sactroop,

 

Was the commercial version distinguished by Bakelite spacers or was that also acceptable to meet the specs?

[sactroop]

In Frank's article referred to in Dustin's post #5 the Government contract knives were made with black or brown spacers between the leather and metal parts. Schrade used brown spacers, Camillus used Black spacers, and Imperial used both. They are made out of a high impact plastic. In the drawing I posted above they are noted as "end plate" and "guard plate".

[capt14k]

Thank you guys for the help. I grabbed the other one for sale for $125 shipped. I will add pics when I receive it.

 

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[Maverickson]

Hi All,

 

It was this thread that sorted out the knife that I have been after for some time. In this case, to replace my father's 1st (1954/1955) original issue USN Pilot's Survival Knife. That particular knife was given to me by my father when he was issued what he would then carry in Vietnam & what is refered to as a Jet Pilot type made by Camillus. The Camillus was issued to him upon joining VA-125 & just prior to deploying to Vietnam in 1966 aboard the USS Oriskany with CVW-16. .

 

Both knives are now long lost & those losses can be.directly attributed to our many moves. However, since recently come up with an IDed WW-2 variety CAMILLUS MARK 1 and same owners combat worn flight jacket it has piqued my interest in obtaining a facsimile to fill the void.

 

I've cropped an image I have taken of my father in 1957 while he was with VA-55 WARHORSES. The Aircraft behind him is a AD-6 or 7 Skyraider and seen below.

 

Over fifty years bygone and I still remember father's fist issue knife. It had a parkeraized finish,with a lenght and blade shaped like my latest Mark I find. However, unmarked on both the blade and sheath. It had brown synthetic fore and after washers on the handle.The pinged over tang had an oblong shape.

 

All leading me to believe it was made either by Camiiius or Imperial. Something I look forward to receiving!

 

Cheers, Dave

[sactroop]

The general consensus on the version of the pilots knife which was "sterile" is that Camillus made it along with a marked version.

Wishing you "good hunting", you should be able to come across examples of both knives at reasonable prices with a little diligence and patients.

[SA1911A1]

Bringing this thread back from the dead as it is relevant to my question.  Do the red plastic spacers on the identical Schrade-Walden knife indicate that it was a commercial knife?

[mikedon]

According to Frank Trzaska's December 1998 Knife World Magazine article, "Pilot Survival Knives", it does.

[sactroop]

There are commercial  Schrade Walden knives that can have bright red spacers. The Government contract knives regardless of manufacture have 6 grooves in the leather handle.

I don't recall seeing a commercial version with grooved handle, but never say never.

Schrade Walden used brown spacers in their Government contract knives, but, I've heard people describe them as reddish or russet in color.

A picture might help clear up the question.

[SA1911A1]

Here is the Schrade-Walden knife that I was speaking of, along side an Imperial (without grooves).  The Schrade is very close to the military specs, including the fold-over sheath.  I recently bought the Schrade thinking that it was the military version, but since I paid under thirty bucks I am not too disappointed.  These are really good lightweight knives.

[sactroop]

IMHO, I believe both knives in the above picture are commercial examples.  The lower knife does have a full guard and six grooves in the leather handle. It would be hard to discribe those spacers as any other color except red, also the two thin white spacers don't seem to be part of the Government spec. either.

It doesn't surprise me to see this Imperial marked knife with bright red spacers either.  We should keep in mind that by 1946 the Imperial Knives Associated Companies had acquired the rights to the Schrade name and rebranded it Schrade Walden.