Early Silver Petty Officer and Apprentice Badges

[Mustang.CDR]

Has anyone seen badges like these before. Guessing they were tailor / jeweler made for liberty uniforms? Any period pictures show sailors wearing them. Any help appreciated.

[hink441]

I have not seen these before but they are really nice!! I am hoping someone will be able to provide some info.

 

Chris

[sigsaye]

I've never seen anything like this. The eagle and Star are reminiscent of a Civil War Petty Officers badge, but I have never seen any reference to metal. The Figure 8 knot was post Civil War for Apprentices. Really nice piece, whatever it is.

[unclegrumpy]

I have a similar metal Apprentice knot that was owned by an apprentice that served in the late 1880's. It is a bit oversized, but not so much that it could not have been worn. Seeing the eagle and star throws that into question.

These went on something...but what? Maybe a decorated seabag or ??

[Mustang.CDR]

I now own these silver badges. Here are pictures of another silver rating badge (earlier pattern) and a silver and gold captain hat device that I am aware of but do not own. I think they were meant to be worn. I have seen pictures of early midshipman wearing large metal anchors on

their collars and others with bullion anchors. I think if you had deep pockets and wanted something fancier on your liberty uniform this is something you would purchase from a jeweler.

[unclegrumpy]

Below is a link to several more that were previously discussed on the Forum. These look to be a size that could be worn...the Petty Officers badge you started this thread with looked oversized to me...part of that was knowing how big the Apprentice insignia I have is...maybe now that you have yours in hand you can give us the size and a comparison?

 

I think the officer's cap badge falls into a different category. The others seem to be all enlisted insignia, most from the time before they were fully standardized and commercially produced. Meaning they had official patterns, but the insignia was handmade and subject to variation....and at times, maybe some interpretation.

 

The embroidered Petty Officer insignia from the just post Civil War time period were often mounted on backings that gave them some dimension on the uniform...it would make sense that if these metal versions are of a similar size, they once were as well.

 

I think the badge on the dark oak background might be shipboard made. I always thought the apprentice insignia I have looked like it was made somewhere on the Asiatic Station...locally produced and purchased. Seeing another very similar one, and the Petty Officers badge reinforces that idea. Now we just need to find a picture or two of these being worn.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/130605-civil-war-petty-officer-mark-in-silver/

[unclegrumpy]

Decided it would be worth taking the bold step of breaking these metal post Civil War to the 1890's enlisted badges/rates/distinguishing marks down into several potential categories. I am not including officer's insignia in this discussion.

 

1) Insignia made in the proper size and configuration to be worn as a substitute to the embroidered...essentially what would later be called "false embroidery"

 

2) Insignia created for post Civil War veterans and/or veterans groups

 

3) Non standard or regulation insignia created to be worn on liberty uniforms...thinking specifically the Asiatic Station, where at times during this period, there was a lot of latitude regarding what was allowed to be worn.

 

4) Something not intended to go on a uniform...but a potential adornment for a seabag, scrapbook cover, or other souvenir related item.

[Mustang.CDR]

Here is a comparison between a cloth badge and the silver one. I still believe its wearable.

[Mustang.CDR]

Could have been worn on the Petty Officer Coat. This is the 1886 Regulations however they were still worn before that date in some form. Note where the apprentice badge is worn.

[Mustang.CDR]

We now know what these silver petty officer badges were used for. I was the under bidder on this 1880's period liberty uniform

[sigsaye]

Im thinking closer to 1870s. By 1883, the Navy was cracking down on these Homeward Bounders. While they still existed, the fancy work is much more Subtal.

[Salvage Sailor]

More auction photos of this uniform here http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/322348-gorgeous-custom-made-1870s-navy-sailor-uniform/&do=findComment&comment=2588989

[carnut63]

I never knew this was a thing. I have a unifrom with metal stars on the back.

 

IMG_3593_zps1c48edbb.jpg.html

 

You can see the whole jumper here:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/202707-span-am-custom-tailored-navy-jumper/

 

[carnut63]

Here is another one that I just bought. It has beautiful details.