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Question for Reenactors


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Hello!

 

Something has been bothering me about reenactors for a while. I've sold a few US uniforms, mostly dress Class "A" on eBay and other places, and one of the first questions I always get is "WHAT SIZE IS IT?" -- I figured it was for a mannequin display or something, until someone tried to send the jacket back saying it didn't fit. Reenactors. And that's fine, if you have a party or something and the combat uniforms aren't appropriate and want to wear a Class "A" or something...BUT...I saw a kid (20 or so) at the Show of Shows last year sporting an AAC uniform with wings, and ribbons including the Distinguished Flying Cross, Silver Star, and Purple Heart.

 

So... my question, not being a reenactor, how far is TOO far? Is it OK for reenactors to wear dress uniforms with rank insignia and patches? Is it OK for them to wear campaign and service ribbons? Is it OK to wear combat decorations like Bronze and Silver stars, Purple Heart, etc?

 

I don't mean to offend, or accuse, or anything -- just want to know if it's abnormal for a reenactor to wear valor decorations on a dress uniform, or if it's a common occurance -- maybe they're impression is that of a specific person, say "I'm representing Capt. Joe Blow of the 101st Airborne who earned a Silver Star at Bastogne" or some such. Just want some clarification. Thanks!

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This is a subject of great debate among reenactors, and opinions run the gamut.

 

Most seem to feel that insignia such as wings, campaign ribbons, and CIBs are okay since they represent what the average serviceman would wear, but that valor awards are off limits for reenactors. Some reenactors have real world military experience and feel it's okay to "translate" their modern awards to period awards.

 

And, inevitably, there are some that don't have a clue. These are the ones most often encountered at gun shows in full-dress uniforms with valor awards, inconsistent awards, mixed-branch patches & awards, overweight by 200 pounds, and needing a haircut. Depending on how you approach them, some will accept a polite correction, but most get defensive and hostile.

 

The way I figure, is that all but the most ignorant know they are posers and idiots, so I don't worry myself too much about them even though it irritates the hell out of me.

 

Steve

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This is a subject of great debate among reenactors, and opinions run the gamut.

 

Most seem to feel that insignia such as wings, campaign ribbons, and CIBs are okay since they represent what the average serviceman would wear, but that valor awards are off limits for reenactors. Some reenactors have real world military experience and feel it's okay to "translate" their modern awards to period awards.

 

And, inevitably, there are some that don't have a clue. These are the ones most often encountered at gun shows in full-dress uniforms with valor awards, inconsistent awards, mixed-branch patches & awards, overweight by 200 pounds, and needing a haircut. Depending on how you approach them, some will accept a polite correction, but most get defensive and hostile.

 

The way I figure, is that all but the most ignorant know they are posers and idiots, so I don't worry myself too much about them even though it irritates the hell out of me.

 

Steve

I agree with Steve. Having been reenactiong going on three years now, my Class A's will reflect any "normal" items worn by the average trooper. (ie Jump, wings,CIB, average ribbons.) I would not DREAM of putting on any awards for valor such as a Silver Star,Bronze Star or Purple Heart. Dedicated reenactors will shun (in my experience) those that do.

Case in point: Last year at the Michigan Chapter 101st Reunion Picnic, there was a reenactor who showed up in Class A's with the full boat of Valor insignia on his uniform.(PH,SS,BS w/valor)..it didn't take long before he not only attracted the attention of us, but the Vets themselves.( He WAS NOT attached to any unit I know of) Finally, after numerous attempts were made to have him remove the items to no avail., they were eventually removed...after a WWII Vet dressed him down..and he left shortly afterwards.

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I had the same question about the highly decorated 16 year old reenactors. Some units allow members to wear the awards if they can prove a member of the family had won them, which made me feel alitle better about it.

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I wear my grandfather's Glider Pilot wings and his Flight Officer pins with great pride.

 

If anyone asks what gives me the right to do so, I'd say that his actions did.

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When attending a living history event in Class A's (very rare), I will wear wings and campaign ribbons ONLY from campaigns that occurred before I was born. When portraying an enlisted man (99% of those occasions) , I won't even wear a Good Conduct Medal.

 

Tom thumbsup.gif

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When attending a living history event in Class A's (very rare), I will wear wings and campaign ribbons ONLY from campaigns that occurred before I was born. When portraying an enlisted man (99% of those occasions) , I won't even wear a Good Conduct Medal.

 

Tom thumbsup.gif

Thats about all I will do Tom. I WILL wear the good conduct medal as I earned it when active duty.
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(20 or so) at the Show of Shows last year sporting an AAC uniform with wings, and ribbons including the Distinguished Flying Cross, Silver Star, and Purple Heart.

 

Maybe he has just brought it?

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General Apathy

Hi Shrapneldude, good question you pose here, and one that I agree with. Shoulder sleeve insignia I have no problem with on a uniform, but personally I have always been against campaign and medal ribbons if not the recipient of them.

 

Even when I dealt in militaria I didn't stock medals, ribbons or campaign bars, I didn't wish to profit, sell or deal in a servicemen's awards and medals that they had won in mortal combat.

 

In England it is certainly against the law to wear a British uniform and medals or ribbons to which you are not entitled. Regarding relatives medals for parades or remembrance Sunday ( Nov 11th ), you can wear relatives medals or ribbons but it has to be on the opposite side of the chest ( i.e. the right chest ) then it is understood that you are wearing the medals for a family member who has passed on and this is legally acceptable practise.

 

However the same law does not apply to any other nationalities uniforms, therefore a re-enactor can wear full medals and ribbons of any nationality if he chooses to do so, it is only their own idea of respect that comes into play here. Again personally I think that not wearing them is the correct thing to do.

 

I love to see and encourage good living history representations of the units and divisions that served in WWI & WWII, and took part in many myself, but drew the line at awards and medals.

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

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In my reenacting unit we only wear the basics. The ETO ribbon, American Campaign, Good conduct, and the Duc. None of us wear the CIB unless earned. We have fellas in my unit that have seen action in Panama, as well as in both Iraq wars and they wear what they earned. Different units have different ideas about the wearing of the CIB, some dont mind while others dont authorize the wearing of it at all unless earned. It just depends on the unit. I was recently at an event where there were WWII vets from the 506th there (see thread in displays thumbsup.gif) and they were actually handing out some of these awards to new members of a 101st reenacting unit.

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I generally draw the line at CIB/CMB and any Valor awards.

 

Guys got the uniform, SSI, campaign ribbons, good conduct, and presidential unit citation (for some individual units and divisions) for just showing up - whether they were frontline infantrymen, cooks, truck drivers or clerks. In my unit - we have a points system based on participation, research and involvement that determines which campaing ribbons can be worn.

 

What we dont allow is wear of the CIB/CMB or any Valor awards, unless the person has actually been in combat, been shot at, and has legitimatley earned that award.

 

I personally find it disgraceful to see some punk kid get handed a CIB after he does his first "tactical" - as he has no clue or appreciation of what it really means to be perpetually cold, wet, dirty, scared, shot at, shelled and have your buddies die around you. I find wearing the CMB to be even more egregious, as having spent 5 years of my life as a Paramedic, having seen death, having seen shootings, stabbings, burns, wrecks, you name it - to have someone who has never treated a patient - let alone been in combat - wear that badge just because "they're portraying a combat medic".

 

I'm sure the same can be said about the campaign ribbons and others that we've rationalized wearing - but ya gotta start somewhere and draw the line somewhere. I'm not about to start tearing awards off people I see wearing them - but I will make it a point of discussion to ask where they earned their medal of valor...

 

What many reenactors refuse to acknowledge or accept is that "less is more" - where it may be far more authentic to wear very little "fruit salad" in many instances.

 

Just my 02 cents.

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Funny how the Civil War re-enactor guys never have to deal with this, huh? :blink:

When I was active duty, I got awards that never existed in WW2. Not one of them was around in the 1940s, such as the Korean PUC, Meritorious Unit Award, ARCOM, AAM, service ribbon, none of that translates to WW2.

So, I decided to sidestep the whole darned thing, and I'm currently converting my officer class As over to that of a War Correspondent. No awards at all! Of course, some knucklehead will probably come up to me someday and ask if I really was a War Correspondent... w00t.gif

I get this all the time when I'm wearing a WW2 uniform, where they ask me how dare I do that. Then I tell them I actually did serve. They shut up every time. And they're always less than 50 years old. After well over a decade in WW2 re-enacting, I have never heard a WW2 vet give any grief to people for wearing medals that are correct for the WW2 uniform being worn.

But I overheard an argument once that sums it all up really well. One guy was saying we should never even wear campaign medals, the other guy countered that with, "Well, then, seeing that none of us wear actually in WW2, I guess none of us should wear any of this stuff at all?"

Good question! Wish there was a good answer! think.gif:?

I don't get what I see a lot of, that vets of post-WW2 of a specific unit feel only they can wear a patch or something of the sort. This is common among the paratrooper re-enactors. Many people who got their jump wings out of a C-130 or 141 feel that others who didn't go to "The Benning school for the gavity challenged" can't wear them. I sort of get their point, but one I had to remind one really obnoxious guy I knew that he had never jumped into combat and certainly wasn't in WW2 and in the end, didn't that make all of us "wanna-bes" in that regard? Man, it got ugly after that! thumbdown.gif

As for valour awards? I say not a good idea unless you really earned them. Frankly, I could care less that your grandfather won a Silver Star. You didn't. Don't wear it. I have a DFC my uncle won in WW2. That doesn't give me the right to wear that on any AAF uniform I wear.

What we dont allow is wear of the CIB/CMB or any Valor awards, unless the person has actually been in combat, been shot at, and has legitimatley earned that award.
I get what you mean and agree pretty much, but bear in mind, plenty of folks on active duty have been awarded a CIB when they never even heard weapons fire (I was at ordnance OBC with a prior-service former 82nd guy who had a CIB from Panama and admitted he never even heard firing closer than a mile away and was in that nation for less than 48 hours total). Now, that being said, at least people who have been awarded them were there TO possibly get shot at, no argument there, but I now plebnty of WW2 vets who think the award is seriously dilluted now because back in the day, you had to be in the thick of it for 30 days before they'd award you one...
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I don't get what I see a lot of, that vets of post-WW2 of a specific unit feel only they can wear a patch or something of the sort. This is common among the paratrooper re-enactors. Many people who got their jump wings out of a C-130 or 141 feel that others who didn't go to "The Benning school for the gavity challenged" can't wear them. I sort of get their point, but one I had to remind one really obnoxious guy I knew that he had never jumped into combat and certainly wasn't in WW2 and in the end, didn't that make all of us "wanna-bes" in that regard? Man, it got ugly after that! thumbdown.gif

As for valour awards? I say not a good idea unless you really earned them. Frankly, I could care less that your grandfather won a Silver Star. You didn't. Don't wear it. I have a DFC my uncle won in WW2. That doesn't give me the right to wear that on any AAF uniform I wear.

 

I agree -- whatever your family members did, it doesn't make it right to stick their medals, or a representation thereof, on a uniform and wear it yourself! Unless, like I said, you stop and tell their story to a few people...the guy at the SOS introduced himself as "Stevie" or whatever his name was, not as "Steve, Representing Capt. Joe Blow" or whatever.

 

I don't agree that reenactors are "wanna-bes" -- they do serve a valuable purpose at educating people on events that helped make our nation the great country it is today, and to remember a terrible time when brave men went to war. Honoring that memory through "living history" is a highly commendable effort, and it means a lot to me to see that guys care enough to preserve a part of history and show others. I just am of the mindset that it can be done in combat uniform, without donning medals for valor that you're not entitled to wear. Even something as seemingly trivial as a set of jump wings or a CIB has a deep meaning.

 

That said, I'd much rather see these things on the well researched uniform of a reenactor who actually cares about history and the men they dress up as, instead of the Paintball and Airsoft kids I sometimes see sporting "RANGER" tabs and such. I guess both ways, they're making war into a game, but the reenactors use it to teach and remember, while the paintball kids use it to make themselves look "cool" with their buddies and don't really care about the meaning of the stuff.

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I generally draw the line at CIB/CMB and any Valor awards.

 

Guys got the uniform, SSI, campaign ribbons, good conduct, and presidential unit citation (for some individual units and divisions) for just showing up - whether they were frontline infantrymen, cooks, truck drivers or clerks. In my unit - we have a points system based on participation, research and involvement that determines which campaing ribbons can be worn.

 

What we dont allow is wear of the CIB/CMB or any Valor awards, unless the person has actually been in combat, been shot at, and has legitimatley earned that award.

 

I personally find it disgraceful to see some punk kid get handed a CIB after he does his first "tactical" - as he has no clue or appreciation of what it really means to be perpetually cold, wet, dirty, scared, shot at, shelled and have your buddies die around you. I find wearing the CMB to be even more egregious, as having spent 5 years of my life as a Paramedic, having seen death, having seen shootings, stabbings, burns, wrecks, you name it - to have someone who has never treated a patient - let alone been in combat - wear that badge just because "they're portraying a combat medic".

 

I'm sure the same can be said about the campaign ribbons and others that we've rationalized wearing - but ya gotta start somewhere and draw the line somewhere. I'm not about to start tearing awards off people I see wearing them - but I will make it a point of discussion to ask where they earned their medal of valor...

 

What many reenactors refuse to acknowledge or accept is that "less is more" - where it may be far more authentic to wear very little "fruit salad" in many instances.

 

Just my 02 cents.

 

Less IS more -- I have an entire house full of uniforms (really...like 700 of them!!) and VERY, VERY few that retain the original ribbons have more than 3 or 4 ribbons. My own ribbon rack from Iraq can't even compare to some of the ones I've seen on reenactors in photos. Seems a little silly to see a grown man dressed up like that, with a magnificent fatasy stack of ribbons when he probably never fired a gun anyplace but an indoor range! haha

 

Didn't know that bestow the CIB on eachother that way - does seem a little tasteless. Playacting is one thing, but that seems taking it a step too far.

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One thing that disturbs me as well, as I reenact also when not doing it for real in the kitty litter box is the multitude of clueless reenactors who sew "wartime service sleeve insignia on their m41's, m43's, etc....”. Why does this upset me you might ask....? First off they did not do their research, second most if you ask them what it stands for they have no clue. To quote my great uncle from WW2 and a few other vets... "we didn't wear patches on our uniforms unless we were in them class A's going back to the states, in fact many of us didn't even have rank sewed on any uniform till we returned to the states". Now with that being said, and with the addtion of the Combat patch (circa 1945)....the nickname for it now, how do reenactors justify wearing this doing fake tactical battles with a time period of 43 44 and 45 when the vets themselves did not wear them till 45 when they returned home. I know of one guy who constantly wears a FSS as a combat patch at every event and never served one day in the military. I have big issues with this much like you all do with the ribbons. But as I don't see many reenactors wearing class A's the above is more of a sore spot with me. BLUF reenactors get rid of the combat patches on your right arms at tacticals and especially public events! If you do wear one of these please enlighten me why you do it!!!

MSG B think.gif

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One thing that disturbs me as well, as I reenact also when not doing it for real in the kitty litter box is the multitude of clueless reenactors who sew "wartime service sleeve insignia on their m41's, m43's, etc....”. Why does this upset me you might ask....? First off they did not do their research, second most if you ask them what it stands for they have no clue. To quote my great uncle from WW2 and a few other vets... "we didn't wear patches on our uniforms unless we were in them class A's going back to the states, in fact many of us didn't even have rank sewed on any uniform till we returned to the states". Now with that being said, and with the addtion of the Combat patch (circa 1945)....the nickname for it now, how do reenactors justify wearing this doing fake tactical battles with a time period of 43 44 and 45 when the vets themselves did not wear them till 45 when they returned home. I know of one guy who constantly wears a FSS as a combat patch at every event and never served one day in the military. I have big issues with this much like you all do with the ribbons. But as I don't see many reenactors wearing class A's the above is more of a sore spot with me. BLUF reenactors get rid of the combat patches on your right arms at tacticals and especially public events! If you do wear one of these please enlighten me why you do it!!!

MSG B think.gif

Strange, I can't recall ever seeing anyone wearing a "Combat" patch on a WW2 uniform, except maybe in isolated cases where someone was wearing an original uniform that had them already sewn right at the end of the war, but never in a tactical setting. Weird how you see some things in some places and not elsewhere, huh?

Still, i totally agree with you on patches in general. I keep pointing out to people there are two things you often see missing from a GI in period photos:

  • Shoulder patches
  • The leather connector strap on their helmet liner

Yet, every GI re-enactor out there HAS to have each! Beats me why...

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Strange, I can't recall ever seeing anyone wearing a "Combat" patch on a WW2 uniform, except maybe in isolated cases where someone was wearing an original uniform that had them already sewn right at the end of the war, but never in a tactical setting. Weird how you see some things in some places and not elsewhere, huh?

Still, i totally agree with you on patches in general. I keep pointing out to people there are two things you often see missing from a GI in period photos:

  • Shoulder patches
  • The leather connector strap on their helmet liner

Yet, every GI re-enactor out there HAS to have each! Beats me why...

 

Theres a few east coast units notorious for lots of green "combat leader" tabs. A great place to really check this kinda thing out in full action is the Ft Indiantown GAP Dinner / Dance / CF. Theres one elite unit in particular where I think just about every NCO and Officer wear them... I asked why - and was told that "the vets told us to" - same with the CIB.

 

It really depends on your part of the country and what kind of gatherings happen.

 

In my neck of the woods, its either guys dressed up as 101 AB with every possible patch, add on, bangle, and whistle ontop of their 15lbs of fruit salads and 3 feet of colored rope - OR 8th AAF Officers wearing the kind of fruit salad you'd see on a Brigadier AF Gen in the early 70s (who'd been in since 42...)

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My personal opinion is that if you want to wear class A uniforms, you're rank should not be above private with no medals, awards, etc. The exception is that of course if you are retired or active duty and your rank and whatever medals could translate over etc.

 

CIBs, rank, wings, and any other awards are for those that have earned them the real way. Not because you've attended 10 reenactments this year and and got that fat nazi.

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My personal opinion is that if you want to wear class A uniforms, you're rank should not be above private with no medals, awards, etc. The exception is that of course if you are retired or active duty and your rank and whatever medals could translate over etc.
While I do generally agree with this, I must relate what a WW2 vet told me about these things. He pretty much said that for example, if I'm portraying a paratrooper or infantryman in class As (late in the war), it would look odd for me now to have jump wings or a CIB as they almost always made sure they had these two things when correct for their job. If you look at many period photos, you'll see that often, they're only wearing the valour ribbons they were awarded or pre-war awards (like the American defense medal ribbon). I've worn jump wings and CIBs on class As for my 82nd and 45th Division enlisted impressions where historically correct. I've been around a lot of veterans over the years doing so and the ONLY people who I've ever heard saying anything at all (and never to myself) have been people younger than 50 years old. I've never even heard of a WW2 vet giving grief for basic things on a class A that you would expect to see.

It actually isn't historically correct for a 1944 or 45 class A impression for a line infantryman to not have a CIB or for a paratrooper impression without jump wings. While I'd never wear valour awards on a uniform, I don't see if the vets are fine with a CIB, why anyone would raise a stink? Nobody's going to believe that anyone under that age of 40 or so was actually IN world war two anyway…

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I've been around a lot of veterans over the years doing so and the ONLY people who I've ever heard saying anything at all (and never to myself) have been people younger than 50 years old. I've never even heard of a WW2 vet giving grief for basic things on a class A that you would expect to see.

 

What does the age thing have to do with it? You've said this twice now.

 

Also, I agree -- talk to some of the WWII vets, and most will tell you they couldn't have cared less what they had on their Class A uniforms -- so long as they got to wear it HOME! The majority of soldiers in WWII were not what we'd refer to as "professional soldiers" -- by that I mean military men with miltiary careers -- they were citizens who joined the military in a great hour of need.

 

Now, though, rethinking this whole thing, I just can't see any really good reason a reenactor needs to wear dress uniforms at all...ever. Combat tactical events call for combat uniforms. Maybe parades and such, representing in dress uniform wouldn't be bad.

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Now, though, rethinking this whole thing, I just can't see any really good reason a reenactor needs to wear dress uniforms at all...ever. Combat tactical events call for combat uniforms. Maybe parades and such, representing in dress uniform wouldn't be bad.

 

 

Usually there is some kind of event at a reenactment where everyone dons their Class A's for a hangar dance or some other kind of social function. While not the case at tacticals, at a lot of spectator events Class A's are worn.

 

The biggest compliment I ever got was when a Glider Infantry vet told me "thank you" for reenacting and keeping their memories alive. That solidified my stance as a reenactor and never again have I doubted doing it for one second.

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Usually there is some kind of event at a reenactment where everyone dons their Class A's for a hangar dance or some other kind of social function. While not the case at tactical, at a lot of spectator events Class A's are worn.
Exactly. Larger events (like Indaniantown Gap) have folks who don't show up for the 'tactical' portion of the event at all and just wear their dress uniforms.
What does the age thing have to do with it? You've said this twice now.
Good question. I'm not really sure why it is, but if anyone gets their knickers in a twist over jump wings or something a re-enactor didn't earn, almost 100% of the time, they fall into a certain age group. There has been a lot of bandwidth devoted to this point among WW2 re-enactors over the past few years. I've also talked with lot of folks around the country about it. Everyone I've talked to have mentioned that nobody of the WW2 generation gives them any grief on the subject of shoulder patches or awards unless it's something they just never saw being used or don't think it's historically correct. The general assumption is that it's a "cold war vet" thing to make a big fuss about it. The ONLY time I've ever seen anyone over the age of 60 make a big deal about anything is if it's the "We never did that" argument (which often translates to "my buddies never did that" or "I don't recall what we did"). In almost 20 years into WW2 living history, I've never seen anyone over the age of 50 having anything to say on the subject we're discussing here one way or another, except two times I've seen WW2 vets ask why paratrooper re-enactors don't have jump wings on their Class As. Then again, I don't have to worry about any of this when I show up in MY class As!

WarCoClassAStand.jpg

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Corpl. Cleaver

I guess I'll jump into this mess and have my say,

I am a youth-reenactor (age 16) The only stuff on my Class A jacket is, 90th ID patch, Pvt stripes, overseas bars for 1 or 2 years overseas, and a good conduct medal. The stripes and overseas bars are original to the jacket and WILL NOT be taken off. And unless I earn them I will never wear a CIB, PH, BS, SS ect.. on my uniform.

 

I Have no problem with guys wearing awards if they are wearing a family members uniform or a recreation of a family members uniform. I say go right a head and do it, but please carry copies of the persons discharge papers or something that shows that they earned the medals.

 

I know or have met some reenactors who have gotten CIB's, Bronze Stars, Purple Hearts etc... in Iraq. But some of them don't even wear those on their Class A's since everyone will say "Why are you wearing those? you didn't earn them, bla bla bla....."

 

I have also seen the unit at the GAP, where half the guys are officers, with all the bells and whistles, CIB, jump wings, PUC (I have no broblem with wearing the PUC, IF your unit earned it), campaign medals, everything..... It makes me sick. If you feel like showing off a bunch of nice medals, make a nice display jacket.

 

I have stuff to go and do, so I'm gunna get off the soap box now, and end my pointless rant...

 

Tyler

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A factual historic impression is one thing -- and yes, airborne units had jump wings and PUC and holland lanyard and all that, but the average fighting man wasn't awarded Silver Star and DSC and all this.

 

One more question though -- these "hangar dances" and such -- are they public reenactment events, or closed "private" parties in which ONLY reenactors attend all dressed up?

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Actually,

Unless they are wearing their fathers or grandfathers original exact uniform, it is quite illegal here in the states to wear a valor award without actually earning it.

Now the Gestapo are not going to haul you away in the middle of the night for it, but you will get your rump kicked by a pissed off vet.

Most reenactments have rules forbidding the wearing of awards not earned.

Sounds like the guy you saw was a “wannabee” trying to make him or herself look and feel better.

Wearing medals that you never earned is wrong and in poor taste.

It dishonors the gentlemen who actually were awarded them.

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