HELP w/PAL M4 Bayonet -- Not sure about the pins?

[july4girl]

Thanks Marv... never too late to party! I may try to add a few more pics tomorrow taken in natural light to show it off a little better!

[doyler]

Beautiful example and a keeper for sure.

 

Carbine items have surged in interest due to the War Baby books published(in my opinion)

 

Post your picture of your dad.Always great to see war time pictures

[jw517]

I don't see a lot wrong to remark on. It has a nic in the blade.( from being dropped by someone's grandson) maybe. It could be unissued and just played with for 70 years on the couch! Looking at the scabbard,if it's original to the knife it's minty to me! I've got my own rating system. It goes from Beautiful down to Charming. I'd call yours Very Very Pretty.

[SKIPH]

july4girl-Welcome to the site. We love collecting, and have frequent discussions about different knives or bayonets. I like to think the main goal here is to keep each other informed, and learn more about our hobby. This is, in my opinion, the most civil, respectful, and patient bunch of collectors you will find anywhere. Please, feel free to ask any question about knives or bayonets here, there is a lot of expertise, and we all like to put our 2 cents worth into a conversation. I also like the M4 you picked up. Again, welcome! SKIP

[jw517]

One important piece of advice! You should stick close to ME. I'll keep the womanizers' away.

[july4girl]

Beautiful example and a keeper for sure.

 

Carbine items have surged in interest due to the War Baby books published(in my opinion)

 

Post your picture of your dad.Always great to see war time pictures

 

Thx Doyler... is that a pic of your father, the black and white one on your profile? Very debonair.

[july4girl]

I don't see a lot wrong to remark on. It has a nic in the blade.( from being dropped by someone's grandson) maybe. It could be unissued and just played with for 70 years on the couch! Looking at the scabbard,if it's original to the knife it's minty to me! I've got my own rating system. It goes from Beautiful down to Charming. I'd call yours Very Very Pretty.

 

 

I like your rating system... it's CUTE, lol! I am pretty well armed with guns and rifles so I think I'm OK as far as security goes, haha... but it's nice to know you're there if I need you!!

[july4girl]

july4girl-Welcome to the site. We love collecting, and have frequent discussions about different knives or bayonets. I like to think the main goal here is to keep each other informed, and learn more about our hobby. This is, in my opinion, the most civil, respectful, and patient bunch of collectors you will find anywhere. Please, feel free to ask any question about knives or bayonets here, there is a lot of expertise, and we all like to put our 2 cents worth into a conversation. I also like the M4 you picked up. Again, welcome! SKIP

 

Hi Skiph,

Thanks for the greetings... I've got several other nice pieces of WWII militaria that I need to inquire about but they're not edged weapons so I'll have to go over to the proper forums -- everyone I've ever dealt with here on the site are very kind, and funny too!!

[doyler]

Thx Doyler... is that a pic of your father, the black and white one on your profile? Very debonair.

No ma'am...

 

its a favorite photo of mine.He was a member of the FIRST SPECIAL SERVICE FORCE and went MIA in Italy in WW2

[july4girl]

I don't see a lot wrong to remark on. It has a nic in the blade.( from being dropped by someone's grandson) maybe. It could be unissued and just played with for 70 years on the couch! Looking at the scabbard,if it's original to the knife it's minty to me! I've got my own rating system. It goes from Beautiful down to Charming. I'd call yours Very Very Pretty.

 

Hey... quick question -- Is there anything to look for to try to tell if a scabbard is original to the bayo or is there just no way to know? The blade slides in nicely but I was wondering, do all bayonets shift slightly inside at the tip of the scabbard? I mean it is wider down there obviously and the blade is a skinny point so there is room to move a little and you can "hear/feel" it when you move the whole thing around (the bayonet inside the scabbard that is).

[Misfit 45]

Your scabbard is in excellent condition. One scabbard came in the box with the bayonet. There is almost no chance to know if that is "the one". However, it is absolutely correct for the bayonet. It's an M8 scabbard. That means it was made during WWII as was your M4. There is a "BN" number under one of the ears on each side of the scabbard. It is a B with a "fraction" then an N. Example, B 2/1 N. If you ignore that it looks like a fraction and just read "21", you will be able to assess the relative age of the scabbard. The lowest number would be "01", or Blank,1. (B /1 N). Suffice it to say that your scabbard is perfectly fine. As to the little rattle, the earliest scabbards have little ridges at the tip on the inside. I think they may have made them a little less prominent as production progressed. I have one of the "first run" M8 scabbards and it is actually tricky to get the blade to go straight down the middle. If it goes sideways, it gets stuck on one of the ridges. It's the only first contract scabbard that I have handled, so it might simply be a problem with that one scabbard. A little rattle is totally normal.

A word of caution. Try to avoid pulling the scabbard in and out so often that it scores the blade. Many collectors store their blades outside the scabbard, I do not. I just keep a little oil on the blade and make sure that I insert the blade the same way each time. There will be scabbard wear anyway from years of use, but it really does not get much worse if you are careful and keep a little oil on it. Hope this helps.

Marv

[july4girl]

Your scabbard is in excellent condition. One scabbard came in the box with the bayonet. There is almost no chance to know if that is "the one". However, it is absolutely correct for the bayonet. It's an M8 scabbard. That means it was made during WWII as was your M4. There is a "BN" number under one of the ears on each side of the scabbard. It is a B with a "fraction" then an N. Example, B 2/1 N. If you ignore that it looks like a fraction and just read "21", you will be able to assess the relative age of the scabbard. The lowest number would be "01", or Blank,1. (B /1 N). Suffice it to say that your scabbard is perfectly fine. As to the little rattle, the earliest scabbards have little ridges at the tip on the inside. I think they may have made them a little less prominent as production progressed. I have one of the "first run" M8 scabbards and it is actually tricky to get the blade to go straight down the middle. If it goes sideways, it gets stuck on one of the ridges. It's the only first contract scabbard that I have handled, so it might simply be a problem with that one scabbard. A little rattle is totally normal.

A word of caution. Try to avoid pulling the scabbard in and out so often that it scores the blade. Many collectors store their blades outside the scabbard, I do not. I just keep a little oil on the blade and make sure that I insert the blade the same way each time. There will be scabbard wear anyway from years of use, but it really does not get much worse if you are careful and keep a little oil on it. Hope this helps.

Marv

 

Wow... thanks Marv! I didn't even notice that marking, first time I've ever thought to look under the ears. Amazing the experience on this board. Well, it was kinda hard to see and get a pic of (I edited the pic by changing it to black and white to help with viewing). It really looks like an "8" over a "3" -- so that is 83? I am sure the bottom # is 3 but the top # had me struggling, first thought it could be either 3, 5, 6 or an 8?? Think it's an 8 now. What does that mean if it's an "83" in terms of when it was manufactured?

[thorin6]

Most likely a 3 over a 3 which would be what one could expect for an M8A1 for an M4 (1944/45 manufacture). Here's some more information on the scabbards.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_6.htm

 

[july4girl]

Most likely a 3 over a 3 which would be what one could expect for an M8A1 for an M4 (1944/45 manufacture). Here's some more information on the scabbards.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_6.htm

 

 

Interesting link -- Would this be the pertinent quote here: "As with the M3 and M7 scabbards, the M8 and M8A1 were marked under the tab of the top plate of the throat. These numbers (as with the M3 and M7) ran in sequence. Although my database does not have as many examples as I might like, it appears that the M8 scabbard starts at B /1 N and runs to about B 2/0 N. Very few numbers have been reported between 2/1 and 2/4. Starting at about 2/5 and running up to about 3/2 the scabbards are M8A1 but are still marked M8 on the throat. Another gap appears from 3/2 to 3/4 with few numbers reported..."

 

Meaning the scabbard design was actually M8A1 but still marked M8 as it says?? That is weird, I never heard that -- I always understood that if a scabbard was an M8 it was marked an M8 and an M8A1 was marked M8A1. So I'm confused -- do I have a real M8 scabbard then?

[Misfit 45]

Like Thorin6 says, it is certainly a 3/3. The M8 scabbard was made for the M3 Trench knife. The original M8 scabbard did not have a cartridge belt hook. The order came down to make the web hanger longer and add a belt hook. The new designation was M8A1. The maker of the scabbard (Beckwith) was allowed to use the old M8 scabbard throats even though the proper name was M8A1. Those M8 scabbard throats finally were used up, at which time the new M8A1 marked throats were used. So technically, you have an M8A1 scabbard with an M8 marked throat.

Your scabbard was made near the end of 1944. The ordered changeover came in April 1944 with the BN number of about 2/0 to 2/2. (I know that conflicts with your quote, but later, the same author, Gary Cunningham amended his figuring). One of the last M8 Throats to be made as an M8A1, was yours at about 3/3. My information says it changed at 3/1 to 3/2, but since yours is 3/3, then it's surely one of the last M8A1 scabbards made with an M8 throat. Clear as mud?

Marv

[july4girl]

Like Thorin6 says, it is certainly a 3/3. The M8 scabbard was made for the M3 Trench knife. The original M8 scabbard did not have a cartridge belt hook. The order came down to make the web hanger longer and add a belt hook. The new designation was M8A1. The maker of the scabbard (Beckwith) was allowed to use the old M8 scabbard throats even though the proper name was M8A1. Those M8 scabbard throats finally were used up, at which time the new M8A1 marked throats were used. So technically, you have an M8A1 scabbard with an M8 marked throat.

Your scabbard was made near the end of 1944. The ordered changeover came in April 1944 with the BN number of about 2/0 to 2/2. (I know that conflicts with your quote, but later, the same author, Gary Cunningham amended his figuring). One of the last M8 Throats to be made as an M8A1, was yours at about 3/3. My information says it changed at 3/1 to 3/2, but since yours is 3/3, then it's surely one of the last M8A1 scabbards made with an M8 throat. Clear as mud?

Marv

 

Awesome, thanks for clearing this up for me Marv! You guys all ought to have PhDs in Militaria!!

[sactroop]

My wife says we should all be committed at least.

[thorin6]

My wife says we should all be committed at least.

 

While my wife would probably agree with that, I do have one thing to add. New information occasionally surfaces that changes what we know. Gary stated that the numbering started at B /1 N (no top number). Then the following appears on an early M3:

 

[Misfit 45]

You mean early M8, that's amazing. Here I thought I had one from the first batch.

Marv

[sactroop]

Does anyone know where the dot or period comes in on the numbering system?

[Misfit 45]

Does anyone know where the dot or period comes in on the numbering system?

 

I need to be educated. My blank/1 is really a " tiny dot"/1. I assumed it was the same as "0". What actually is your question?

Marv

 

 

[sactroop]

Just as we see in your photo that some of the sheaths have a dot or a period where a blank or number would be. I've seen some where the space really looks blank and I can't see any dot,spot, or period.

Could it be that;

period = zero

period = something else

period = mystery.

 

One of my BM sheaths is marked B. /4 N. I'll have to dig it out, but I expect it will be M8A1.

[Misfit 45]

Sactroop,

If it is an M8A1, (i.e. it is marked M8, but has the long hanger and belt hook), then it would be one of those that weren't converted to M8A1 until after WWII by removing the old web gear and replacing it with the M8A1 system. These conversions in the early 1950s, look the same as the WWII scabbards, but can be identified by having a BN number of less than 2/2 (like yours). After 1956, the conversions were still being made, but will have the larger snap button that was used throughout the rest of the M8A1 production. Some of those post 1956 conversions may have the retaining strap as "left over right" like the WWII style, or have a "right over left" style, which, again, continued 'til the 80s or 90s. Gary shows in his new book the "large button, left over right" strap. But my "dot/1" scabbard has the later style "large button, right over left" strap.

 

Pertinent to your specific question, I would SUGGEST that the dot means "0".

 

For those listening in, all this information comes from Gary Carpenter's books and his "Bayonet points" online, and a limited CD he made prior to his second book. Sorry he's gone.

Marv

[thorin6]

You mean early M8, that's amazing. Here I thought I had one from the first batch.

Marv

 

No, I meant an early M3 for the 16-inch bayonet. I was pointing out that the quality control numbers start with B - N (no numbers above or below the dash) contrary to Gary Cunningham's web site that says the earliest number is B /1 N (the number 1 under the dash between the B and N).

The numbers changed as production continued and moved through the M7 and into the M8/M8A1 scabbards. Gary corrected the web site in his latest book.

New information occasionally surfaces that changes our knowledge and we need to be alert to it.

[Misfit 45]

My mistake thorin6.

Examining Gary's new book, the same BN starting point is true for the M8 as well for the M3. Both scabbards have their starting point as B / N. Thanks for the correction.

Marv