What era are these sailors?

[GITom1944]

This photo is from the local Historical Society - it has been in the collection with no identifying information. I'm trying to pin down when it was taken and I thought some of you might have a keener eye for naval uniform details than I. One thing I was able to figure out: the photo was not taken in the Far East. The pagoda is on the grounds of a mansion in Newport, RI. The two sailors are on the cliff walk that is still a popular sight-seeing attraction. I have a hunch they may be members of the Connecticut Naval Militia on a summer cruise before the U.S. entry into WW1. Any other ideas?

 

 

Tom

[patches]

Well it would have to date after 1908. So yes. lets say 1920s for the sake of argument.

 

 

 

This from the WIKI on the location of this Chinese building, which is the Vanderbilt Marble House

 

When Alva Vanderbilt divorced William in 1895, she already owned Marble House outright, having received it as her 39th birthday present. Upon her remarriage in 1896 to Oliver Hazard Perry Belmont, she relocated down the street to Belmont's mansion, Belcourt. After his death, she reopened Marble House and added the Chinese Tea House on the seaside cliff, where she hosted rallies for women's suffrage

 

Oliver Hazard Perry Belmont dies in 1908. As far as unit, Newport Rhode Island did and does have a Navy Yard, so these guys are most likely station there.

 

[GITom1944]

Thanks, Patches.

 

Tom

[RustyCanteen]

Two seaman (white stripe), and I would agree most likely anywhere from WWI to 1920s.

[themick]

I don't believe the two images portray the same building. Too many major differences. Study them both carefully.

 

Steve

[patches]

I don't believe the two images portray the same building. Too many major differences. Study them both carefully.

 

Steve

Hmm the current photo shows extensive renovations/restorations and reconstruction of it's base/foundation as well as it being appeantly relocated back from the waters edge (as seen in the comtempory aerial photo of it). does have some differans though from what were seeing in the OP photo, the sides for one, while the roof looks the same.

 

 

[patches]

A thought, could the sides in the OP photo be of a temporary War Time application, to cover the ornate sides??? If this is so, then WWI, like some time in 1917-18 then.

[sigsaye]

The way the neckerchief are tied is the style of WW1 (era). If you look at the Sailors cuffs, you see there are no stripes. This means they are Recruits (1 cuff stripe is Aprentice Seaman, or graduated Recruit, 2 is Seaman Second Class, 3 is Seaman First Class). Newport RI had a Recruit Training Center, from just before WW1 onward. These Sailors are on Recruit Liberty from RTC Newport.

[GITom1944]

Newport RI had a Recruit Training Center, from just before WW1 onward. These Sailors are on Recruit Liberty from RTC Newport.

 

 

patches/sigsaye - A long overdue thank you for your info & comments. Very helpful. I should have kept checking the thread.

 

Tom

[patches]

You know looking at the original post that you made, I do see some discrepancy in the way the ground is around this structure, (Something I believe The Mick also might of noticed when he said these are two different structures) the lay of the land just looks different from the old B/W photo of it that I posted and the stone base with that turreted/battlement affair. (those walls in yours I'm convinced was a Wartime measure to present less a view from the Heines, if they might come close to shore with a submarine.)

 

So it occurred to me that the photo you have (Do you Own It?) and posted is a Reverse Image, see! See now how it looks much better, the sloping ground to our right and the sea to our left, with that turret/battlement on the other side out of view now. More to follow in the next quote.

 

[patches]

The wear of the Seaman strip around the shoulder was of concern, that's the position we always see it, over the right, like in WWII.

 

 

 

 

 

But check these out, seems in the WWI era they were worn the opposite (these are not reversed images as we see the cap tallies and top breast pockets), this was another clue that the OP photo was a revered image.

 

 

[patches]

And one more WWI photo, Firemen. Man from USS Maine will be USS Maine (BB-10)

 

[MastersMate]

Somewhere around 1910sh the shoulder stripe changed from being a watch mark (port or stbd) to a branch mark (seaman or engineroom)

[patches]

Somewhere around 1910sh the shoulder stripe changed from being a watch mark (port or stbd) to a branch mark (seaman or engineroom)

Do you have the background on the wear of these vis a vis WWI postion to the more familiar WWII era -present position MM?

[MastersMate]

The January 1913 and 1917 USN Uniform Regs calls them Branch Marks. Worn by non rated men. The white or blue stripe is worn on the right shoulder seam of the blue or white jumper for those in the seaman branch.. The red is worn on the left shoulder of the blue and white uniforms for those of the engineroom artificers branch. Other branches, artificer, special, commissary, etc, etc, did not wear the branch stripes.

[patches]

The January 1913 and 1917 USN Uniform Regs calls them Branch Marks. Worn by non rated men. The white or blue stripe is worn on the right shoulder seam of the blue or white jumper for those in the seaman branch.. The red is worn on the left shoulder of the blue and white uniforms for those of the engineroom artificers branch. Other branches, artificer, special, commissary, etc, etc, did not wear the branch stripes.

Any reason why these saliors wear a White stripe on their left shoulder then.

 

[patches]

Now we see White ones on the right in WWI, what gives???

 

 

 

[MastersMate]

"Any reason why these saliors wear a White stripe on their left shoulder then."

 

A pre Nov 1912 photo of seaman 1st class assigned to the port watch. End of 1912 was the date that the stripe changed from a 'watch mark' to a 'branch mark'. 3 cuff stripes indicate seaman 1st class or petty officers.

[patches]

"Any reason why these saliors wear a White stripe on their left shoulder then."

 

A pre Nov 1912 photo of seaman 1st class assigned to the port watch. End of 1912 was the date that the stripe changed from a 'watch mark' to a 'branch mark'. 3 cuff stripes indicate seaman 1st class or petty officers.

I got it now, thank you much, so maybe the image wasn't reversed at all then, and that wall area with the turreted area we see in the B/W photo I posted was built in the 20s-30s ?