Maj. McRoy Posted September 17, 2017 Share #51 Posted September 17, 2017 As for the T-6 Seat, we had a similar aircraft in Canada called the North American T-6 'Harvard'. I've flown several and each of them had metal seats and as I recall no bungee cords but very close in appearance to your P-51 seat, so not 100% sure on why the US ones were plywood. Awesome desk chair though, wish I had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #52 Posted September 17, 2017 As for the T-6 Seat, we had a similar aircraft in Canada called the North American T-6 'Harvard'. I've flown several and each of them had metal seats and as I recall no bungee cords but very close in appearance to your P-51 seat, so not 100% sure on why the US ones were plywood. Awesome desk chair though, wish I had it. During WW2 aluminum was a priority metal used for war production on front line aircraft. Trainers made during the war used plywood seats to conserve metal. In as far as the construction of this seat, it is what was used in the P-51D as seen in the break apart diagram. The only difference is mine has the inertia reel and not the spring shoulder harness retractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #53 Posted September 17, 2017 Agree, it is what it is. I am curious though wasn't the pilot's seat armoured in the P-51? And it seems to me there's an awful lot of stuff in the belly of the P-51 preventing a piece of flak from penetrating into the pilot's seat... As I said earlier, it's a cool seat and a great story. But as in law enforcement, if you haven't proof it isn't fact. I would never purchase an item with this lack of proof and provenance unless the price was based only on it being a P-51 seat. You've done your homework and I'm no expert on P-51 seats, outside of having sat in them. I'll give you that it is likely a seat for a P-51, but active war service, salvage, or what, no one can say without documentation. If say you had the original in theatre damage and repair documents saying it was removed or repaired from S/N so and so. I'd accept the story, if you don't it is and will always remain a subject of debate. The reality is no one knows exactly where the seat originally came from, and what actually caused the damage. Without evidence as in the academy training you have no case. It is merely supposition and hearsay. In any case you're not trying to sell it to me so my input is done. And I maintain regardless, it is a cool Item and a great story. I'd stick to it. I've heard far more fanciful tales in many, many years in aviation, usually those begin with "No S#@t, There I was..." The armor plate on all P-51's is behind the seat. The spring posts at the top have a bracket that connects it to the armor plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #54 Posted September 17, 2017 One other detail on this seat is the split seat post mount. I have no idea what caused this. My guess is a hard landing split it in two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #55 Posted September 17, 2017 Agree, it is what it is. I am curious though wasn't the pilot's seat armoured in the P-51? And it seems to me there's an awful lot of stuff in the belly of the P-51 preventing a piece of flak from penetrating into the pilot's seat... As I said earlier, it's a cool seat and a great story. But as in law enforcement, if you haven't proof it isn't fact. I would never purchase an item with this lack of proof and provenance unless the price was based only on it being a P-51 seat. You've done your homework and I'm no expert on P-51 seats, outside of having sat in them. I'll give you that it is likely a seat for a P-51, but active war service, salvage, or what, no one can say without documentation. If say you had the original in theatre damage and repair documents saying it was removed or repaired from S/N so and so. I'd accept the story, if you don't it is and will always remain a subject of debate. The reality is no one knows exactly where the seat originally came from, and what actually caused the damage. Without evidence as in the academy training you have no case. It is merely supposition and hearsay. In any case you're not trying to sell it to me so my input is done. And I maintain regardless, it is a cool Item and a great story. I'd stick to it. I've heard far more fanciful tales in many, many years in aviation, usually those begin with "No S#@t, There I was..." As they explained it to me the thick black line is the rough path of travel of the shrapnel. The area of the wing strike misses all the heavy metal on its way up and in the side of the fuselage. This is thin skinned with no real obstructions in its path. The point of entry is above the flight deck and below mid thigh to the pilots right. Nothing is in that area of the cockpit. IT does not come up through the belly. The wing spar would have stopped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. McRoy Posted September 17, 2017 Share #56 Posted September 17, 2017 I don't doubt you've got yourself a P-51 seat. Obviously you've done your homework and have the manuals. There were likely production changes which would easily explain the inertia reel. I'd personally put the seat post split to a 70+ year old item carelessly handled and stored in a barn over the undocumented hard landing theory, as again there is no fact or provenance to support it. For anything to be proven there needs to be a clear chain of evidence and facts, not imagination and supposition. Just because someone told someone something is arguably not fact. I used to hear a lot of BS from WW2 vets, including one nice old gentleman saying he was a commando at the normandy D-Day landings, when in actual fact he'd been a cook, and never even went overseas. I guess he just wanted his military service to look more exciting than it really was. Most mysteries and myths have mundane explanations. Enjoy the seat and believe what you want. Some you will convince, others not. Such is the way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #57 Posted September 17, 2017 On the far right and low is the number 11. That is about the point of entry. It then travels up into the area shown in the photo posted. Its all sheet metal with no obstructions in the fuselage. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #58 Posted September 17, 2017 The wing spar is clear of the point of entry from below and exit to the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #59 Posted September 17, 2017 I don't doubt you've got yourself a P-51 seat. Obviously you've done your homework and have the manuals. There were likely production changes which would easily explain the inertia reel. I'd personally put the seat post split to a 70+ year old item carelessly handled and stored in a barn over the undocumented hard landing theory, as again there is no fact or provenance to support it. For anything to be proven there needs to be a clear chain of evidence and facts, not imagination and supposition. Just because someone told someone something is arguably not fact. I used to hear a lot of BS from WW2 vets, including one nice old gentleman saying he was a commando at the normandy D-Day landings, when in actual fact he'd been a cook, and never even went overseas. I guess he just wanted his military service to look more exciting than it really was. Most mysteries and myths have mundane explanations. Enjoy the seat and believe what you want. Some you will convince, others not. Such is the way of life. Like I said I have no idea what caused the bracket to split. I can only guess and your guess is as good as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #60 Posted September 17, 2017 Like I said I have no idea what caused the bracket to split. I can only guess and your guess is as good as mine. Back in the day when I went to bars I would always come across guys who claimed to be Vietnam vets. I would ask what their MOS was and get a disjointed story about deeds done in the field. I got tired of buying beers for guys who may or may not have been combat veterans so I bought a very big book on the Army Order of battle in Vietnam. I would take it into the bars with me and it quickly separated the real deal from the B.S. story tellers. I had every real deal guy autograph his unit section in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share #61 Posted September 17, 2017 I originally bought the book to help identify what I was looking at when I went to P-51 crash sites. Almost everything has a prefix number on it used to assemble the aircraft and the book will tell you what part it is and its location in the aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share #62 Posted September 20, 2017 Notice how many times the aluminum at the top of the strike spun in on itself. one last thing I neglected to say about the curled metal. Notice the width of the metal curled. The object that deflected up was that wide. Same as the metal that curled. Picture a wood planer being run up a board. The only wood removed is what the blade on the planer males contact with. If you ran a Buller up the seat the curvature of the bullet would only cut the metal. It would not have the surface area to curl a strip of metal. The object that struck the seat had at least one side that was flat and about 1/2 inch wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBookGuy Posted November 9, 2021 Share #63 Posted November 9, 2021 noticed this topic pretty recently, quite a great-looking item and interesting discussion - many things I didn't know. Please just one question, about how precisely does work a inertial reel in this instance. Does it react only to sudden accelerations? If flying upside down but in a smooth 1- G environment, will shoulder belts keep me firmly on the seat - or, will I go down a small amount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantomfixer Posted November 10, 2021 Share #64 Posted November 10, 2021 On 11/9/2021 at 4:44 AM, BlueBookGuy said: noticed this topic pretty recently, quite a great-looking item and interesting discussion - many things I didn't know. Please just one question, about how precisely does work a inertial reel in this instance. Does it react only to sudden accelerations? If flying upside down but in a smooth 1- G environment, will shoulder belts keep me firmly on the seat - or, will I go down a small amount? modern inertial reels can be locked for such maneuvers....just a guess that the older ones did too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBookGuy Posted November 10, 2021 Share #65 Posted November 10, 2021 ... so, when flying upside down with that kind of seat harnesses would most of body's weight be supported by the lower belt around the pelvis? What could be the amount of allowed forward moving by a inertial reel like that shown here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #66 Posted November 28, 2021 What you observed is not correct. According to the ballistics guy the strike came from below and in front of the right wing as you sit in the seat. The shrapnel passed through the right wing and into the fuselage at a high rate of speed at an upward angle passing through the area of that seat strut in photo #6 and #8. The shrapnel hits the inertia reel plate (The inertia reel plate is punched in from the front of the seat) and deflects straight up causing the damage up the seat back. I assume the flack was spinning in a direction durring all of this and caused the ripping going up to the back of the seat as seen in the photo's. On a side note the cast seat frame mount from the seat to the post on the bottom left of the seat as seen from behind is broken in half. I wrapped wire to hold it together. The indication is the aircraft hit hard on landing breaking the cast seat part. Also not seen are the mounting connectors that were on the top of the sear posts that held it firm to the armor plate. These were tourch cut off and I did not put them back on due to the rough jagged metal being a safety hazzard . If you look at the bottom of the seat posts the discoloration giving them a bluish color is due to those nuts and bolts also having been tourch cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #67 Posted November 28, 2021 On 11/9/2021 at 1:44 AM, BlueBookGuy said: noticed this topic pretty recently, quite a great-looking item and interesting discussion - many things I didn't know. Please just one question, about how precisely does work a inertial reel in this instance. Does it react only to sudden accelerations? If flying upside down but in a smooth 1- G environment, will shoulder belts keep me firmly on the seat - or, will I go down a small amount? The WW2 inertia reel functions just like the seat belt of a car. A sudden movement locks it in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #68 Posted November 28, 2021 On 11/10/2021 at 11:15 AM, BlueBookGuy said: ... so, when flying upside down with that kind of seat harnesses would most of body's weight be supported by the lower belt around the pelvis? What could be the amount of allowed forward moving by a inertial reel like that shown here? The harness is a four point harness. When flying upside down assuming you are flying in a stright line with no G force in effect the shoulder and waist straps hold you in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #69 Posted November 28, 2021 On 11/10/2021 at 11:15 AM, BlueBookGuy said: ... so, when flying upside down with that kind of seat harnesses would most of body's weight be supported by the lower belt around the pelvis? What could be the amount of allowed forward moving by a inertial reel like that shown here? Movment foward is not restricted so long as its not a sudden movement. A cockpit is a tight space so not allot of movement is needed to reach anything that can be reached in the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBookGuy Posted November 28, 2021 Share #70 Posted November 28, 2021 57 minutes ago, P-59A said: Movment foward is not restricted so long as its not a sudden movement. A cockpit is a tight space so not allot of movement is needed to reach anything that can be reached in the cockpit. Thanx, very interesting. btw, please what's the side cable (so it looks to me) departing horizontally from reel unit toward left side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #71 Posted November 28, 2021 4 hours ago, BlueBookGuy said: Thanx, very interesting. btw, please what's the side cable (so it looks to me) departing horizontally from reel unit toward left side? There are two adjustments. The one up front bottom right is a lever that connects to the pins on the seat posts to go up and down and the other is a tension release for the inertia reel box, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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