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Chaplin, Major's class "A" double patched 6th/2nd Armored Division WW2


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According to his paper, which also lines up with his uniform, he was with the 6th Div, and then was with the 67th of the 2nd Div after the war. That is also how his uniform lines up.

BTW, I have the 6th Div Chaplain, CH Homer Milford chaplains kit, pic of him with the kit and an Armored Attacker Newspaper.

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Okie Dokie Chap15, now for the 64,000 dollar question. Do you know the circumstances behind the PH and BSM? AND what campaigns he was in? On a side note I had assumed he was transfered to the 2nd AD much earlier in the war. I thought I had read another Chaplain was associated with the 6th AD.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Miniature bronze medal with eyelet and loop for ribbon suspension; the face with the head of Grand Duchess Charlotte facing left within a beaded border, circumscribed ‘CHARLOTTE GRANDE DUCHESSE DE LUXEMBOURG’ and dated ‘1944’ at the base; the reverse with the lesser coat of arms of Luxembourg centrally within two concentric rings, the inner ring inscribed ‘MIR WELE BLEIWEN WAT MIR SIN LUXEMBOURG’ (= we wish to remain what we are, the motto of Luxembourg), the outer ring inscribed ‘LE PEUPLE LUXEMBOURGEOIS RECONNAISSANT A SES LIBÉRATEURS’ (The People of Luxembourg, Recognisant of their Liberators); diameter 18.35mm (0.72 inch); on replaced ribbon that we understand is correct. We have been unable to find any official record of this medal and, despite its appearance, we therefore assume that is was issued unofficially soon after the liberation of Luxembourg in mid-September 1944. Nor have we been able to find any record of full-size versions, so it may well be that this was the only version produced. The Medal turns up most often in the United States and this is to be expected as it was the 5th U.S. Armoured Division and other elements of the First Army that liberated Luxembourg. Any further information would be gratefully received. The Medal is rare.

(This is as close as I get to information on this medal. The one on this uniform diameter is 1 1/8th", much larger than the one described above)

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According to his paper, which also lines up with his uniform, he was with the 6th Div, and then was with the 67th of the 2nd Div after the war. That is also how his uniform lines up.

BTW, I have the 6th Div Chaplain, CH Homer Milford chaplains kit, pic of him with the kit and an Armored Attacker Newspaper.

would you post the photo of him to this?
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An E-mail to me re: the medal. I have never seen a full-size medal, nor is there much at all published on the medal.

Very interesting to see your images.
Peter

Peter Dangerfield

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Another e-mail to me re: the medal.

Hello David,

On 15/08/2017 7:46, David S. wrote:

We have been unable to find any official record of this medal and, despite its appearance, we therefore assume that is was issued unofficially soon after the liberation of Luxembourg in mid-September 1944.

I believe that description comes from Peter Dangerfield's site (medal-medaille) and it does sum up my thoughts too. Only the rare larger sized medal and a limited number of smaller sized ones reported, does lead to think of an unofficial award. Should I come across something that contradicts this, I'll certainly contact you.

Regards,
Hendrik

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So, This is were I am at with the Luxembourg medal. I contacted The National Museum of Military History in Luxembourg. After a week of shooting e-mails back and fourth they came up with nothing and decided the description on Dangerfield's web site must be correct and I have the wrong ribbon on it. Mr. Dangerfield and I had been going over this medal back and forth for a week prior to contacting the "Museum". My observations of this medal were fair and Mr. Dangerfield gave me the contact information for the museum to submit my questions. The questions I have on this medal are as follows. 1) If this medal was issued by a local municipality and it is not an official state issued medal, why is it given in the name of Grande Dutches Charolette with her coat of arms in the name of the people of Luxembourg? 2) Can a municipality issue such a medal in the name of the Dutches and the people of Luxembourg with out the consent of the Dutches and the government? 3) If not, and the Dutches and the government gave there consent, how is this not an official medal? I suggested 3) If this were authorized for the first liberation of Luxembourg in September of 1944 and the Germans retook Luxembourg after that it would make sense the Germans would have destroyed everything associated with this medal or 4) The government of Luxembourg was in exile in England in 1944. The possibility of the papers being lost or destroyed during that time are in the realm of possibility. 5) The fact you have no papers in your records about this medal doesn't mean they never existed, only you don't have them. 6) The artist who created this medal is the same artist who was commissioned to create the Luxembourg Soldiers Medal. In fact they look allot alike. Look into the artists papers to find out who commissioned and paid for the medal I have and that will once and for all set straight if this is an official medal or not. The National Museum of Military History in Luxembourg has sent my request to the National Museum of History and Arts (Cabinet of medals and coins) Luxembourg. Lets see what they come up with.

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Good work there.

 

Just to point out on point #3

 

3) If this were authorized for the first liberation of Luxembourg in September of 1944 and the Germans retook Luxembourg after that it would make sense the Germans would have destroyed everything associated with this medal.

 

The Germans never retook all Luxemburg, during their Ardennes Offensive the area of north north eastern Luxemburg was entered.

 

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That is a valid point. I am not up on when the government of Luxemburg repatriated from England or were they located. The main point is the the country was in disarray at the time and if this was an official medal the paper work could easily been lost or destroyed.

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That is a valid point. I am not up on when the government of Luxemburg repatriated from England or were they located. The main point is the the country was in disarray at the time and if this was an official medal the paper work could easily been lost or destroyed.

Yes quite right on the turmoil and disarray, chances are the government remained in England for a time after September 1944, the Dutch and Belgians too I imagine, reasoning that these areas are still active combat zones to risk these royal heads and their minsters. I suppose they all returned well into the new year, if anything arriving on the continent, and setting up a seat in France, and at the very least starting to send government people to their respective countries to lay some ground work and work with the allied civil affairs folks to get things in order again.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi my friend David

I finally could get some information:

 

The medal is not an official one of the luxembourguish Government but it is a souvenir medal.

It was ordered by Jeweller BARTH of Luxembourg-city and was SOLD as a merchandise.

The Artist was Charles GUILBERT and the medal was produced at MONAIE DE PARIS mint.

Apparently it exist 2 versions: one of 27mm in Diameter and a reduced version of 18mm in diameter, both always in bronze.

There was no ribbon attached to the medal ( I guess one could fix it to a key-ring, or as indicated on your uniform, fixed with a needle)

 

According to my information and due to the fact that it is a souvenir medal (there are others as well) no certificate was attached to.

 

We could not find any other information beside the one that the Jewelry BARTH no longer exists, which makes it also very difficult to get some more details on the order (but I will try to contact Monnaie de Paris).

 

I could not get any information on how and if the jeweller got the authorization of producing such medals with the effigy of the Grand-Duchess no such doument exist. I dont know either if the Grand-Ducal court has issued such an authorization and under which conditions. So, in my opinion the medal was produced as a merchandise inbetween a so called quiet front sector. Luxembourg was liberated from the 9th to the 13th of September 1944 and due to military operations more to the North (Belgium and Holland), Luxembourg was became a quiet area until the 16th of December, when the Battle of the Ardennes started. The Grand-Ducal court did not return to Luxembourg until the 14th of April 1945, only the govenrnment in exile returned on September 23, 1944.

 

Another source of information but with very poor information was found in a book published by Mr Raymond WEILLER in 1979 on the luxembourguisch medals ( see attached pics).

 

Sorry, but that all I could find out.

 

Roland

 

 

I just received this information today from the Luxembourg military museum. While their are still unanswered questions I am very happy they were able to answer these.

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That's about as good as a detailed explanation one could hope for, it explains quite a bit.

I am very pleased with what the Luxembourg Military Military has found. Research is thankless work, but finding the truth is worth the effort. I don't expect that the Monaie De Paris mint will have the contract information so many years after the fact, but one can always hope!

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That's about as good as a detailed explanation one could hope for, it explains quite a bit.

Fingers crossed.

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This is not over yet. I have more questions.The Monnaie de Paris (Paris Mint) is a government owned institution responsible for producing France's Euro coins. Founded in 864 AD, it is the world's oldest continuously running minting institution operating from two sites, one in Paris and one in Pessac. Administratively speaking, the "Direction of Coins and Medals", the national mint is an administration of the French government charged with issuing coins as well as producing medals and other similar items. Many ancient coins are housed in the collections maintained there. Though in the Middle Ages there were numerous other mints in provincial cities officially issuing legitimate French coinage struck in the name of the ruler, the Monnaie de Paris has always been the prime issuer.

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Mr. Dangerfield is one of the people I contacted about the medal. He is a dealer and has had two of these. This was his reply to the message from Luxembourg... Very interesting - more information but not conclusive. I think even in wartime a jewellery would have had quite a nerve to issue the medal without some kind of approval, especially as Allied victory and the return of the government were certain.

I suppose we will never know.
Good work.
Kind regards,

Peter.

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Hendrik is another dealer I contacted who has had one of these medals and is the co-author on a book on medals. This was his reaction to the information from Luxembourg... Hello David,

Excellent work ! Thank you very much for that interesting information.

Regards,
Hendrik

I have no problem with the Paris Mint manufacturing a Luxembourg medal. Their tender was probably the lower one and guaranteed some quality standards. During the war French medals were manufactured by London firms, nowadays lots of countries have their medals struck in China ...
Similarly, the London firm of Spink & Son produced quite a few Luxembourg medals during WW2. It safe to say it would have taken some time after the liberation for a local business to set up or re-establish itself as a competitive medal manufacturer.

Regards,

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So this my latest reply from the Luxembourg Military Museum. If the jeweler in Luxembourg ( a private person who no doubt died long ago ) ordered these medals to sell on the open market, Why after 70 plus years is this confidential information? It doesn't add up. To my way of thinking you can only protect the confidentiality of an entity that still exists. If anyone has any ideas on how to move forward with this please clue me in......

Hi David

 

I got an answer from Monnaie de Paris regarding the medal but the answer is not satisfying.

They wrote that due to the character of my request and the attached (confidential) information they cannot provide any details on the medal.

So, this concludes my actual research as I do not know whom I can contact to get any additional information but I don’t give up. Maybe I’ll be lucky in the future and if so, I’ll keep in touch

 

Yours

Roland

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  • 3 weeks later...

It was suggested I place a value of around $500.00 On the medal. I had asked for an idea from a couple of people in the know.

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  • 5 months later...

Apologies for posting if it was for sale in a non sale forum, but much appreciation for keeping everything together.

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  • 5 months later...

We forwarded your message to our patrimonial department that will be abble to get back to you.

 

We wish you a nice day,

Best Regards

Distance Selling Department
Monnaie de Paris
11 quai de Conti
75006 Paris

With a little luck I might get the answer the Luxembourg government could or would not seek.

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