Model-1910 Bolo vs Model 1904 Hospital Bolo

[Retired Army Noncom]

False advertisement or just lack of knowledge?

 

I see M-1910/1917 bolos being advertised/described as both hospital bolos and MG crew, both for clearing brush, etc and that is correct but....1904 hospital are distinctly for the hospital issue by design so wouldn't the M-1910/1917 models be for issue to MG crews only and not for both MG and hospital as from places I have read?

 

Just curious..........

 

Thanks

 

Ed

[SKIPH]

Have seen all sorts of photos from WW1 into WW2 where various units carried M1910/ M1917 Bolos, not necessarily MG crews. On the other hand, the M1904, w/ "non-threatening" rounded tip, designed for medics, can't recall really seeing any photos of one being carried by anyone. I'm sure they exist, and were probably used into WW1, but pics are scarce. You also don't see too many pics of troops carrying the M1909 Bolo, which to me is very impressive, and very heavy to hump around. But, I'm sure the bolos were not just limited because they were tagged either "Hospital", or "Machine Gun" as to who received or used them. You know as well as me, that trading equipment was a very common practice. Just an opinion. SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

Have seen all sorts of photos from WW1 into WW2 where various units carried M1910/ M1917 Bolos, not necessarily MG crews. On the other hand, the M1904, w/ "non-threatening" rounded tip, designed for medics, can't recall really seeing any photos of one being carried by anyone. I'm sure they exist, and were probably used into WW1, but pics are scarce. You also don't see too many pics of troops carrying the M1909 Bolo, which to me is very impressive, and very heavy to hump around. But, I'm sure the bolos were not just limited because they were tagged either "Hospital", or "Machine Gun" as to who received or used them. You know as well as me, that trading equipment was a very common practice. Just an opinion. SKIP

OH Yes!!! When joining a new unit, the Supply Sgt and Mess Sgt were always the two you needed to know REAL well but...when the supply Sgt didn't have what you needed, it was beg or buy or scrounge either legally or illegally.

 

After doing some more research, MG crews didn't form until during and mostly after WWI, so, who was issued M-1910 bolos from 1910/11 to 1917? Wasn't non-existent MG crews.

[sactroop]

A lot of knives were less likely to be directly issued to an individual than they were intended to be included in some type of specialty kit. It's my suspicion that many of these kits if returned to the controlling agency were discovered to be missing certain items that would need to be replaced to complete the inventory of said kit. It wouldn't surprise me at all that such a scenario would account for either pictures from the theater or items in the personal possession of various veterans showing up. I've heard personal accounts now more than a few times from veterans of that being the way they came to posses such an item.

[SKIPH]

At this stage, about all we can do is speculate! And that's cool! SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

At this stage, about all we can do is speculate! And that's cool! SKIP

I concur....love to go back in time with a camera, notepad and pencil and walk around incognito and return with a wealth of info and then write a book with photo to back up the info.

[Retired Army Noncom]

A lot of knives were less likely to be directly issued to an individual than they were intended to be included in some type of specialty kit. It's my suspicion that many of these kits if returned to the controlling agency were discovered to be missing certain items that would need to be replaced to complete the inventory of said kit. It wouldn't surprise me at all that such a scenario would account for either pictures from the theater or items in the personal possession of various veterans showing up. I've heard personal accounts now more than a few times from veterans of that being the way they came to posses such an item.

During my peacetime years of German gasthaus's and Oriental Sushi bars, I had two of everything, one kit for the field and the other for the IG Inspections...saved alot of time but I'm sure back in the early years there wasn't a Quartermaster Store to spend your clothing allowance in and who would want to on the pay our forefathers were paid.....not me.

[Charlie Flick]

After doing some more research, MG crews didn't form until during and mostly after WWI, so, who was issued M-1910 bolos from 1910/11 to 1917? Wasn't non-existent MG crews.

 

Well, Noncom, you might want to double check that research. In fact, there were US machine gun crews well before 1917. Indeed, there were several different MG models in use up until the US entered WW1 including the Vickers, the Colt Potato Digger and the M1909 Benet Mercier. All had assigned crews. MG crews were issued the M1910 bolo as part of their individual equipment.

 

See, for example, the image below which is a page from the Handbook on the Automatic Machine Rifle Model of 1909 published by the Ordnance Department in 1912 and revised in 1916.

 

 

A Model of 1909 MG crew, several of whom have the prescribed bolo. (Photo credit to Gunbarrel)

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Charlie

[SKIPH]

Charlie- Great research! I tried to find out "T,O,& E" for cavalry units earlier today. Not even any good pictures. SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

 

Well, Noncom, you might want to double check that research. In fact, there were US machine gun crews well before 1917. Indeed, there were several different MG models in use up until the US entered WW1 including the Vickers, the Colt Potato Digger and the M1909 Benet Mercier. All had assigned crews. MG crews were issued the M1910 bolo as part of their individual equipment.

 

See, for example, the image below which is a page from the Handbook on the Automatic Machine Rifle Model of 1909 published by the Ordnance Department in 1912 and revised in 1916.

 

Bolo Reference M1909 MG manual.JPG

 

A Model of 1909 MG crew, several of whom have the prescribed bolo. (Photo credit to Gunbarrel)

 

M1909 Benet Mercier MG with Bolo.jpg

 

 

 

Regards,

Charlie

Thanks Charlie....that's exactly the info I've been searching for and a photo too...great!! Those are BARs I see. My searches had more of 30 Cal water cooled MG in mind. Never entered into my mind about BARs.

 

Cheers

 

Ed

[SKIPH]

According to the picture these are M1909 Benet-Mercie machine guns. The US adopted them in .30.06. Had to look hard but found some other info. These are not BARs. SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

According to the picture these are M1909 Benet-Mercie machine guns. The US adopted them in .30.06. Had to look hard but found some other info. These are not BARs. SKIP

You are correct.............

 

"Production of US Army-bound M1909s was handled by both Colt and the Springfield Armory".

[solcarlus]

Bonjour.

 

I have not understood everything. Here are WWI photos showing the different models.

Regards Solcarlus.

 

 

[solcarlus]

#2

 

 

 

 

[SKIPH]

Solcarlus- Great pictures of mixed M1904, and M1910 Bolos. Have never seen these pictures before. At least some of the bolos are M1910, because you can clearly see the scabbard catch. Thanks for posting! SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

Solcarlus- Great pictures of mixed M1904, and M1910 Bolos. Have never seen these pictures before. At least some of the bolos are M1910, because you can clearly see the scabbard catch. Thanks for posting! SKIP

Skip...did you notice in that last photo the nurse standing next to the soldier?

 

Kinda hard to make out the hat brass branch in the group shot. I think it's an Inf unit.

 

Nice photos, thanks Solcarlus

[SKIPH]

Hard to tell, due to the absence of firearms, and bayonets, whether it was an infantry unit or not. My conclusion is not. The picture w/ the nurse, I suspect is a medical unit, and that's an ambulance they are standing next to. SKIP

[solcarlus]

There's a nurse there by her side. I cut the picture.

 

 

Here's another photo showing the metal scabbard. Occupation in Germany

 

[Retired Army Noncom]

Would either of you know exactly when the blades starting to be blackened? I've only read it was prior to WWII.

 

Ed

[SKIPH]

The M1910s from SA were left bright until around WW1, 1917-ish when I believe they were blued along w/ the M1905 bayonets. The M1917 Plumbs, and ACCs were blackened/blued during production. SKIP

[Retired Army Noncom]

The M1910s from SA were left bright until around WW1, 1917-ish when I believe they were blued along w/ the M1905 bayonets. The M1917 Plumbs, and ACCs were blackened/blued during production. SKIP

Thanks Skip...........

[Frank Trzaska]

Great photos.

 

As to the original post... The Army was very compartment-ed at that point in time. They all wanted their own equipment, load bearing equipment, color of stripes, etc. The Hospital Corps wanted a non combatant item without a point so designed the Model of 1905 (yes 1905 not 1904) Hospital Corps Knife. The Artillery designed the Model of 1909 bolo for clearing a path and a field of fire, it was to be squad issued not meant for typical carry as it was so big. The Ordnance Corps designed a bolo for the rest of the Army for typical squad use. Original issue was one per 4 man squad, one pick mattox and two intrenching tools (shovels). It was finally replaced by the hatchet. It was for utility use, cutting roots while digging, clearing field of fire etc. The Machine Gun crews were issued it for the same use but to also be used as a brace for the bi-pod legs. They were driven into the ground and tied off to the bi-pod.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[Retired Army Noncom]

Thanks Frank for that info, much appreciated.

 

Ed

[robinb]

The photo with the mule is very interesting for me. Check out all of the machinegun carts at the left of the photo. And the harness on the mule is fantastic.

[Retired Army Noncom]

 

Well, Noncom, you might want to double check that research. In fact, there were US machine gun crews well before 1917. Indeed, there were several different MG models in use up until the US entered WW1 including the Vickers, the Colt Potato Digger and the M1909 Benet Mercier. All had assigned crews. MG crews were issued the M1910 bolo as part of their individual equipment.

 

See, for example, the image below which is a page from the Handbook on the Automatic Machine Rifle Model of 1909 published by the Ordnance Department in 1912 and revised in 1916.

 

Bolo Reference M1909 MG manual.JPG

 

A Model of 1909 MG crew, several of whom have the prescribed bolo. (Photo credit to Gunbarrel)

 

M1909 Benet Mercier MG with Bolo.jpg

 

 

 

Regards,

Charlie

Hey Charlie......would you have a copy of the TO&E issue that would have been in effect around 1915 or there about's for a regular cavalry trooper? Would appreciate it......thanks

 

Ed