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Belleauwood

WW1 Metal Wing / Real?? / Maker

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I have had this wing for several years now. It's one of those that look beautiful from 20 inches but presents questions when really studied. I was dissapointed when I received it, but have come to appreciate the uncommon appearence of what I think is a very unique wing.

 

So, for all of you wing experts, it's time to chime in on what you think. - Real or No real. Those that guess (or know) if it is real or not will have a beverage of their choice purchased for them by me at the SOS in March if they make the right decision. You can only guess once.

 

On the lighter side of collecting - ---

 

Dennis

 

post-3422-1224620498.jpg


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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I am no expert, and I am not afraid to be wrong...so I'll take a shot at it. I think it is real, and here is why.

 

 

Although at first glance, there are some areas that look crudely made when applying what little knowledge I have obtained so far. I look for crispness, to indicate die striking and signs of flawing or mistakes usually found in cast examples. This one has a lot of wear to it, so a lot of the features have lost detail. Although I do see some areas that make me scratch my head *(listed below), I do think it has the potential to be a period wing.

 

* Areas of question (in my mind):

 

1. Gold wash over "US" instead of being gold or other base metal resembling gold.

 

2. The inner portion of the wings look as if they have been snapped off abruptly instead of a smooth taper or a nice transition.

 

3. The black backing appears to be near mint while the wings and shield are worn (possibly a replaced backing?)

 

4. Prongs have been pushed through the backing after sewing up, instead of sewing them unseen.

 

 

Things I DO like:

 

1. The "US" is separately applied with solder, and not cast into the shield.

 

2. The pin, hinge, and catch look of the period.

 

3. The overall wear to the wing appears to be consistent form honest use or from over polishing.

 

4. The backing is nice, and tightly sewn.

 

 

 

Lastly, and I hope this makes sense. The areas that appear crude do not look like the result of being unfinished or disregarded by a lazy faker. These areas are too obvious to be missed. The reasons that concern my novice eyes, are the very reasons I think it is good :unsure: .

 

The wings themselves are very odd and a strange configuration. If I were going to fake one, it would be a recognizable pattern (such as Dallas type) that would be much easier to fake and not one that would obviously raise eyebrows. I feel that these are original early to late 1920's wings that were not top quality, and possibly made for a pilot on a budget.

 

Since the effort was made to solder on the "US" separately, why not affix some brass or copper letters instead of gold wash if it was the intention to fake? It would have been easier to do so, and save the step of plating.

 

 

OK, I am ready to be taken apart. You can criticize and chastise me, but don't laugh at me, no....I mean it... crying.gif Wrong or right, I am sure I will learn something here.

 

 

 

Disclaimer:

 

If I am completely and totally wrong, it is because I have not received the proper instruction necessary for detection of fake wings from "expert" members here. :lol:

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I too believe it to be a period wing though I do believe it has been repaired at some time in its life and a new pin catch used. Of course this comes with all the usual caveats of not having it in hand etc. etc.!!!

 

 

Gary


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"YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH RED WINE, TOO MANY BOOKS, OR TOO MUCH AMMUNITION."

Rudyard Kipling

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Dennis,

 

I'm pretty sure I got one of those in a box of cracker jacks when I was a kid. You don't want those nasty things taking up precious space in your collection. Just drop 'em in mail with my address and ensure they get a proper burial. ;)

 

Mark


Visit My Website

Falls Creek Collectibles
Selling Quality 20th Century Militaria


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Hi Dennis

 

I think this is a Dunham made wing that may have originally started out its life as a 1-piece wing but had the wings cut off and added to a wool backed plate to make it look more like the traditional 3-piece Dallas wings. I like the wool backing and the vaulting in the wing look good. The detail is not what I expect at all, but that is hard to really tell in the scans.

 

On the other hand, this wing is frequently faked and we had a long discussion on a similar wing offered by Charles Schnieder on his web site (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=26700&hl=dallas%20wings&st=0). Pics added below. You can see some small differences in the size and the placement of the US, but enough similarities to make me wary.

 

Without having much better information and pictures, I would lean towards this wing NOT being real.

 

Patrick

post-1519-1224631259.jpg

post-1519-1224631302.jpg

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I don't usually play stump the chump, but there is beer involved.

 

As a good friend, and very knowledgeable wing collector, once pointed out to me; these wings often had a life span far beyond the World War years. Some aviators that stayed in service continued to proudly wear their 1918 wings on their uniforms, others proudly wore theirs on American Legion hats, civilian jackets, etc. Many wings had to be repaired, some were re-worked when they became beat up, sometimes several times, over the spans of their use.

 

This wing appears to be a re-worked Dunham. Clearly the wings have been cut from the shield, the wings also appear to have had some chasing added to change the details in the feathers. Without comparing the wing side-by-side with a known good Dunham, and since there are many known fakes of this wing, it is beyond problematic to tell if:

 

- It is a real Dunham wing re-worked by a jeweler

- It is a fake Dunham wing re-worked by a faker

 

It is entirely plausible that the original owner thought his 1918 Dunham wings were just not "Dandy" enough, or that they somehow became broken, and consequently were re worked by a local jeweler. Dunham himself is known to have "personalized" wings. The Air Force museum has a pair of Dunham made wings created to memorialize the death of Lt Sydney Brooks in San Antonio. These wings are also hand chased (along with having Brooks name chiseled in the face).

 

It is also possible that a faker, knowing the plausibility of the statement above, had a competent jeweler perform the work.

 

The bottom line is: This is a wing who's pedigree is more important than it's apparent appearance. If the wing is a documented biographical wing, then by all means it stands on its own merits. But without a pedigree, then well, it might be real, but that really is in the eye of the beholder. Even if you could compare it to a known good original, and in comparison decided it indeed compared favorably, you would still have to decide if the work was performed in 1918 or 1981.

 

Chris


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I don't like the lack of detail to the wings and feathering. It seems muted as real ones would be crisp in the detail. To tell you the truth thats why I don't have a single metal WW1 wing in my collection. I know what to look for in bullion and go with what I know..Paul thumbdown.gif


 

Si vis pacem, para bellum

 

https://www.facebook.com/BROLHD

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Dennis,

 

Is this a miniature wing...

 

:lol:

 

 

think.gif ......Interesting Chris, I didn't notice the size of the wing. Maybe that would explain the cut down wings. If I were a betting man, I would say that the wings were bent or broken at the shield so they were clipped and re-mounted. I think the photo in post #9 is a clue...the shoulder is damaged.

 

I am still saying "Original"... ;)

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OK Dennis. We're ready for the whole story. I really, really need my daily WWI aviation fix. w00t.gif


Visit My Website

Falls Creek Collectibles
Selling Quality 20th Century Militaria


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OK, --------Seems that most of the votes are in. I have 3 tables at the Show of Shows in Ky in March. Come by and make plans for enjoying a cold one!

 

The wings are 100% real. They were formarly the property of James A. Royer, pilot, 9th Night Observation Squadron. Royers group is fairly complete including his Paris tailored uniform, Visor hat, flight overalls, etc. When I received the uniform and saw the wing, I was ready to box'er up and send it back. The wing looked real but I had serious doubts as I had never seen anything like it. It has heavily vaulted wings as well as the shield. It was most likely professionally hand made in France. It is approx. 3.5 inches in length with narrow wings. It has always been a 3 part wing. I will post the group at some point in the future as time permits. Here's the proof. -

 

post-3422-1224802470.jpg

 

Potographed in France


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1224802547.jpg

 

Officer Id booklet - Notice typical bullion wing


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1224802636.jpg

 

 

French Tailored uniform (Paris) - Post War buttons and insignia. (Circa 1925)


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1224802851.jpg

 

 

Paris Tailored uniform - Post War insignia, (circa 1925)


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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A great example of how our "collecting" minds perceive what we think should have or could have been concerning wings of that period. Even though a wee bit ugly, I would be honored to have a wing with this history in my collection...hot damn!!!

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