Attricuted Black Widow NC group

[Kropotkin]

Hello,

 

I've had this Navy Cross for a little while, which came from the estate of Evans Kerrigan via Spinks, New York, and am looking for some information on it. Supposedly it was awarded to a Marine for acts of bravery at Guadalcanal, but as I don't know much about US decorations I am looking for some expert appraisals on it. I suspect the clasp isn't original but that doesn't bother me much if the medal is pukka.

 

[KASTAUFFER]

I can tell you the brooch has been replaced . It looks like a wwi victory medal brooch.

 

I suspect the medal was bar mounted at one time and removed.

 

It does look like a correct black widow to me. During WWII, US Navy decorations were all made by the US Mint, and all had a variation of the USN brooch . The only exceptions are TYPE 1 Purple Hearts (Split Brooch), and post war contracts with slot brooches. The finishes on the brooches can be different ( gold wash, bronze ETC ) , but the basic design of the brooch is the same .

 

Kurt

[salfred]

I assume this is the group you bought.

 

I was interested in it myself, but didn't see it until days after it had sold. Well done.

[Kropotkin]

Yes, that is the group and sadly the Purple Heart isn't named. Also, a couple of the campaign medals have an engraving 'Display 15761' on them, which I haven't been able to decipher. Could this have been for Evans Kerrigan's reference (I imagine his collection was extensive)? Any ideas?

[Dave]

Yes, that is the group and sadly the Purple Heart isn't named. Also, a couple of the campaign medals have an engraving 'Display 15761' on them, which I haven't been able to decipher. Could this have been for Evans Kerrigan's reference (I imagine his collection was extensive)? Any ideas?

 

 

That's very odd engraving/stamping. I've never seen anything like that before.

 

Any chance you can post up a shot of the reverse and obverse of the Purple Heart? From the above photo, it looks like an Army example.

 

Dave

[Dave]

Yep...I agree with Kurt. Maybe someone took that off a mounted bar as well, and put on a new brooch?

[Kropotkin]

That's a good theory. Having looked at the other medals in the group there is a mixture of period or later brooches.

 

In terms of naming Purple Hearts, was this something that was requested by the serviceman/NOK or done privately rather than automatically by the relevant official bodies?

[Dave]

That's a good theory. Having looked at the other medals in the group there is a mixture of period or later brooches.

 

In terms of naming Purple Hearts, was this something that was requested by the serviceman/NOK or done privately rather than automatically by the relevant official bodies?

 

 

For naming, if the award was posthumous, the government did it automatically. Veterans could send their medals in to get engraved by request, or they could request another set of medals later, and those would be engraved, but it wasn't automatic if the awards weren't posthumous (of course, there are always exceptions, but in 99% of the cases, that was how it worked.)

 

Dave

[Kropotkin]

Thanks both. And was this the same for other medals, such as the Air Medal, depending on when it was awarded?

 

I have a USAAF KIA group where the PH is officially engraved and the AM is not. I'm assuming the recipient was awarded the AM before he died.

[Dave]

Thanks both. And was this the same for other medals, such as the Air Medal, depending on when it was awarded?

 

I have a USAAF KIA group where the PH is officially engraved and the AM is not. I'm assuming the recipient was awarded the AM before he died.

 

Yes...that's correct. An unnamed AM could easily be one that was awarded before the recipient was KIA. I have a group with a numbered DFC (for operation Tidal Wave) an unnamed AM, and an officially engraved PH from when he was KIA later. All three medals came in the same box from the man's sister, so I know they are 100% right as they should be.

[Kropotkin]

Thanks for sharing your expertise on this subject, all. It's greatly appreciated.

[Kropotkin]

A postscript to this thread. I’ve been reliably informed by his family that this medal group is not that of Bob Fuller, which still resides with them.

Disappointed obviously, but happy that Marine Fuller’s hard earned awards are still where they should be.

Still, a black widow NC is still a black widow NC (if it is indeed such).

[Blacksmith]

Bummer.  This lot does have some of the trappings of a tribute group, perhaps assembled to honor his service.

 

Depending upon what you gave for it, the whole of the parts may still cover it.  I’m not sure what a “black widow” NC planchette is worth, but that’s obviously the plum - at least for me.

[Kropotkin]

Thanks, yes probably a tribute set. Just goes to show that even reputable dealers and auction houses get it wrong on occasion.

[Blacksmith]

For what it’s worth, I think it looks good together, and does serve the purpose of remembering this Marine and his service.

 

Thank you for sharing it, and moreover, bravo for being forthright with your newly-discovered information.

 

Lesser chaps would have quietly passed  this on to the next unsuspecting guy / gal.

 

You’re a good egg.