blitz67 Posted May 24, 2017 Share #1 Posted May 24, 2017 I found this today at a local junk shop. Can anyone give me any history on this? I didn't know the Navy wore kepis. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz67 Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share #2 Posted May 24, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastersMate Posted May 25, 2017 Share #3 Posted May 25, 2017 The Revenue Cutter Service cadets wore a similar style cap in the 1870/1880.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz67 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted May 25, 2017 Looks close, but these have Navy buttons. Its amazing how little information there is on early Navy uniforms, thanks for the help! Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastersMate Posted May 25, 2017 Share #5 Posted May 25, 2017 From what I could find from the USN uniform regs of the time frame that style of cap might be worn, there is no mention of the gold lace band around the base of the cap. Usually has black mohair specified. The curved visor seems to dominate since about 1886.. Might want to check out the pattern og the gold lace, it doesn't have thet Navy "feel" to it. Looks out of place.. A stab at possibly something connected to the Marine Corps ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastersMate Posted May 25, 2017 Share #6 Posted May 25, 2017 A quick check does not appear to be a gold lace pattern used by the USMC.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosshark Posted May 25, 2017 Share #7 Posted May 25, 2017 Hi, I have a couple of USN M1883 and a M1897 pictured in -Displays- just search- Former dining room- in that forum and they are regulation styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz67 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted May 26, 2017 Bosshark, the gold lace is obviously an addition, it does appear to be of the period and matches the wear and aging of the kepi, I wonder if it has something to do with an academy? My first thought was that it was an admirals or flag officers. I believe it does belong on the Kepi and is not something added for theatrical or other use. I can't find the thread about the Navy Kepis you were referring to though, I do appreciate the help. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz67 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted May 26, 2017 I took the buttons off and the braid, buttons are marked N.S. MEYER NYC, so I think they were added, I know the company has been around since 1868, but the buttons don't look like they are period to me. The braid may not be original, but it has been on the Kepi for a long time, as you can see the black wool fabric is much brighter and cleaner where the braided band was. There is also a sewn seam around the whole kepi in the center of the sides, it appear the kepi was made this way to keep the braid in place, maybe its not military, but fraternal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludwigh1980 Posted May 26, 2017 Share #10 Posted May 26, 2017 I would say the kepi is fraternal. May have been made up with the braid and buttons as a theatrical piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz67 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted May 26, 2017 I think I agree, thanks for all the help! Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father V Posted January 26 Share #12 Posted January 26 I think you’re still on here, Blitz, so I’ll comment. The original button & gold cord strap could be original. What I would say about it would depend greatly on the measurements of the circumference at the top. The 1866 blue cloth cap for officers was the same circumference on top as the bottom, i.e. a cylinder. https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/u/uniform-regulations-1866.html Because the underlying supporting structure was only supposed to go up to 1/4” from the top, you get kind of a floppy effect. The 1866 was also the first year they added venting grommets (2 on each side, 4 total) which I also see are on the cap. Another feature of this cap is a slight taper from front to back. I can’t tell by looking if it’s perfectly flat on top. Externally, the caps of this era talk about a band (lower half) and the quarter (upper half) separated by visible welts and this cap also conforms to that. In 1869, the gold cord chin straps started moving from the Academy out into the fleet. In the 1866 regs, only graduated midshipmen wore it in the fleet but as they got out there it appears that other officers wanted it, because both sets of 1869 regs, the short lived March ones and the July ones extended it to all officers. The modern gold lace chin strap started in the 1883 regs officially. It might have happened by some uniform modification before then. Still, if the measurements don’t gel and it’s shorter on the top of the cylinder than the bottom and the top is level (flat, not tapering from front to back), then we’re dealing with a different model completely, namely the 1883, illustrated in 1886. The top was to be slightly less than the bottom. The visor was to be molded and angled downward (20-30 degrees). 1866’s cap visor was just rounded and was worn mostly flat like the chasseur type caps of the Army (The so-called McClellan style) though you can find photos with a downward angle. The 1883 was even more floppy on top as the supporting underneath structure was 1” from the top. A note about height. In the M1866 it was 2.5-3” and M1883 was 2.75-3”, though my reading of the 1866 regs actually makes the 2.5” official measurement a mistake. It has to do with the measurements they have for the band and quarters. If none of the math works out, then I’ll throw in with the other folks in the thread, but too much looks like a deliberate attempt at creating an older design to be an accident given that modern caps aren’t constructed this way at all. Even the Navy started returning to more flared tops in 1897, the same as was specified in 1864, and it just got bigger from there. Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father V Posted January 26 Share #13 Posted January 26 On 5/26/2017 at 2:14 PM, blitz67 said: I took the buttons off and the braid, buttons are marked N.S. MEYER NYC, so I think they were added, I know the company has been around since 1868, but the buttons don't look like they are period to me. That’s basically marketing. They took over another firm (S.N. Meyer?) that went back that far according to McGuinn & Bazelon’s expanded 2006. Their actual mark starts c. 1907 (pg 97 of that book). They’ve manufactured quite a few of the classic NA-113 (Albert’s #) type buttons. Given the buttons, and the style of construction I’d say it’s possible someone was creating a replica or homage to the older styles. Gold lace disappeared from Navy caps by Nov 1863 as being impractical (and expensive) in wartime (my theory) so it was never worn with the more cylindrical styles of cap. Even that gold appearing band in 1886 illustrations was just an attempt to illustrate lustrous black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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