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13th Bomb Squadron 1956-1958 The Devils Own Grim Reapers


phillock
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Here's an example of a period Thai puffy. They are usually a little stiff when you bend them. Note the differences compared to the 13 BS one.

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Randy, I welcome other comments as well - I can say with certainty my patch is a little stiff when its bent.

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Randy, I welcome other comments as well - I can say with certainty my patch is a little stiff when its bent.

I should have also added the other known repros I handled were also stiff too. Again, they were made by the same shops, but normally not to the same quality standard as the wartime ones. Again, speaking in general terms as there always exceptions in the patch world.

 

Randy

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I should have also added the other known repros I handled were also stiff too. Again, they were made by the same shops, but normally not to the same quality standard as the wartime ones. Again, speaking in general terms as there always exceptions in the patch world.

 

Randy

 

Randy,

I understand fairly well about the myriad of exceptions but I definitely appreciate the insight

 

dave

 

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I know there's other VN era patch collectors out there. I would really like to hear your thoughts on the 'VN oscar' patch I posted.

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I know there's other VN era patch collectors out there. I would really like to hear your thoughts on the 'VN oscar' patch I posted.

 

I know there's some on here that know this story as well. Strange no one has spoken on it.

 

Randy

 

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I know there's some on here that know this story as well. Strange no one has spoken on it.

 

Randy

 

 

I have faith that some will comment on this patch :) one way or the other.

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Thor, those are different from yours. Yours probably has a white cloth backing, known as a puffy back. These were originally done by Indian tailor shops outside the Thai USAF bases. The eBay ones are current SEA made repros. Ironic, a repro of a repro. There is just so much bad stuff out there these days, you really have to be careful.

 

Randy

 

yes and no. these are different than mine, they are very poorly constructed. :) but they are similar in that they share the same design which the one you posted did not so that's kind of like comparing fruit from the same country but not the same species?

 

Maybe someone out there has one a little more similar to the original one I posted....

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yes and no. these are different than mine, they are very poorly constructed. :) but they are similar in that they share the same design which the one you posted did not so that's kind of like comparing fruit from the same country but not the same species?

 

Maybe someone out there has one a little more similar to the original one I posted....

 

I can't post a 13 BS Thai puffy because in all my years collecting (30+) I've never seen one. Which means nothing in the patch world as anything is possible. I've seen many US, RVN, Japan and maybe a few regular Thai made 13 BS related items, but no puffies. I posted the pic of the 47 TFS one just to give an idea of what the majority looked like with that construction. But since you and I seem to be the only two interested in this, we may never know! :(

 

Randy

 

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I can't post a 13 BS Thai puffy because in all my years collecting (30+) I've never seen one. Which means nothing in the patch world as anything is possible. I've seen many US, RVN, Japan and maybe a few regular Thai made 13 BS related items, but no puffies. I posted the pic of the 47 TFS one just to give an idea of what the majority looked like with that construction. But since you and I seem to be the only two interested in this, we may never know! :(

 

Randy

 

 

I know it means nothing, despite me being a relative new comer to the game, I know anything is possible. a lot of people hadn't seen a 103rd aero squadron either but one just materialized on ebay..and well, there's a whole thread dedicated to it.....I'm patient, surely someone may know more about this...

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Some of the older collectors will remember about the guy that went to Thailand for business in the 80s and started coming back with lots of patches. There may have been a few overruns at first, but then a lot of other designs, including ones never seen before showed up. The individual passed away, and his collection also hit the market along with lots of duplicates. Lots of army and AF spec ops stuff as well in there. I don't have "proof" as I wasn't there with him, just what has been told to me over the years by very knowledgeable collectors since I started collecting in the 80s. Additionally, I get many patches direct from vets. Never have these lined up with anything attributed to that person. Coincidence? Some of this stuff is still being sold on eBay, I assume by one of the relatives. It's close enough to fool people, and some people really believe it's all good. There is another set of about 35 fighter related ones done by another person,; these are downright scary and only because he was honest with me would I know. I just posted this as a warning, this stuff is out there and that is fact. What you do with it going forward is up to you.

 

Randy

 

been doing a lot of digging on this and I think the fellow you are referring to name was last name Clinton-and I recall hearing things about this too or maybe reading in some other threads on the forum.......

 

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Im thinking it TOM CLINTON who was having the paches made.Many I recall were SF and SEAL Spec Ops related and were machineembroidered or the ones I saw were.

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Im thinking it TOM CLINTON who was having the paches made.Many I recall were SF and SEAL Spec Ops related and were machineembroidered or the ones I saw were.

 

that's the name. and that's what I had heard or read about....

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/277680-seal-team-2-patches-which-one-is-original/?hl=%2Btom+%2Bclinton

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/266921-some-navy-seal-related-patches/?hl=%2Btom+%2Bclinton&do=findComment&comment=2147137

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River Patrol

Thor996's patch is a great example of Thai embroidery.....the details and workmanship are typical of the time period. If I remember correctly one of these is currently on Ebay from an established seller, and 1 sold about a year ago for multiple hundreds of dollars.

 

The idea that these are from Tom Clinton is merely speculation. The repros he has produced and sells can be seen at SOS on John O'Conner's tables most years and do not even come close to having the details of Dave's (Thor996) patch.....As far as I know, Tom made mostly Navy patches as repros.

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Thor996's patch is a great example of Thai embroidery.....the details and workmanship are typical of the time period. If I remember correctly one of these is currently on Ebay from an established seller, and 1 sold about a year ago for multiple hundreds of dollars.

 

The idea that these are from Tom Clinton is merely speculation. The repros he has produced and sells can be seen at SOS on John O'Conner's tables most years and do not even come close to having the details of Dave's (Thor996) patch.....As far as I know, Tom made mostly Navy patches as repros.

 

Thank you Steve.

 

dave

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vintageproductions

Tom has been blamed for every patch that does not fit to known types ever made in Asia.

 

Tom had a computer chip business in Taiwan and traveled all over Asia buying up as much insignia as he could find. I ran into him in shops in Subic Bay and in Taipei.

 

After he passed away and his son started selling his incredibly large collection, we had many talks and compared notes on different shops we all visited then.

 

When I asked about his dad making stuff in the Thailand, TD flat out said they did not make any of that stuff and all the patches were sold to them in old shops they tracked down. TD said maybe the shops made them and told them it was old stock, but he and his father never had any of the USAF patches made for them in Thailand.

 

I have / had known the Clinton's for a long time and one thing I know is they were / are not liars, and they would have / had no reason to not tell the truth about where they found the stuff Tom Sr. had.

 

I have heard all the accusations of Tom Sr supposedly making these "puffy" back patches, and according to TD, those rumors were started by some European USAF patch collectors who his dad wouldn't do business with, and they tried to talk crap about him and start rumors. I have heard the stories that Tom had made these since back in the late 80's- early 90's.

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Good info Bob

 

I had corresponded with Tom back in the day and agree he was a straight shooter.

 

i meant no disrespect with my post and the term made should have been "purchased".I too had heard for years that they were made but know he bought lots of insignias that were already made.

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When I asked about his dad making stuff in the Thailand, TD flat out said they did not make any of that stuff and all the patches were sold to them in old shops they tracked down. TD said maybe the shops made them and told them it was old stock, but he and his father never had any of the USAF patches made for them in Thailand

 

That's why I didn't state he had them made. I just said that's when this stuff started showing up. Maybe after a while they saw him coming and took advantage. My info came not from European guys, but several highly respected US collectors. I am talking in general terms here so no one should get offended, I'm not try to trash Clinton or any of the responders here. The scary fact to me is the original 13 BS patch as posted matches nothing I have construction-wise with that border. And I have literally 100s of SEA made pieces, many direct from vets. I also know that means nothing in the patch world with all that is out there. But after a while you get a feel, and that one feels wrong. I seen a few of these, always in new condition. Never had one from a crew. After a while a picture forms. There were a few guys doing this in the 80s, and it pains me to see this stuff commanding the prices of the originals. And if you try to help and let someone know they have an ugly baby, things usually get nasty. So much, that I normally don't comment much these days. Don't get the feeling I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong, I'm just voicing my opinion based on 30+ years of collecting. And I could well be wrong.

 

Here's a good example I'll post below. Awesome Thai patch that would fool anyone. I kept it for years thinking it was real. Come to find out it was part of a 35 or so piece set (with 3 sets made IIRC) by some guys in the 80s. Mostly fighter squadron patches. Made at the exact shop the exact way, maybe a little looser weave on the border. I would never know but one of the guys that was involved told me. These are scary, and they are out there. So, like all things collectible, provenance is best if possible. But I would not count someone going into shops over there in that category. I wasn't there and don't know what transpired, I just know I've seen a lot of stuff that doesn't match up. It's everyone's right to make a choice on that. I have no dog in this fight, I collect for the history and the connection I have from my 26 years in the USAF.

 

Randy

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vintageproductions

Randy, please don't take my post personally. I was just adding what TD had told me when I flat out asked if his dad made any of the stuff he was accused of doing. he was with his dad on almost all the buys they did. I just added the info as I know Clinton's name gets popped up a lot when people talk about Thai made insignia.

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Randy, please don't take my post personally. I was just adding what TD had told me when I flat out asked if his dad made any of the stuff he was accused of doing. he was with his dad on almost all the buys they did. I just added the info as I know Clinton's name gets popped up a lot when people talk about Thai made insignia.

Bob-

 

No sweat, I wasn't. I just quoted the part about TC may have not been buying wartime stuff as he thought he was. Again, I don't know his intentions. I'm just pointing out the effects. It's a mess, and there are others involved as well as you can see by the pic I posted. I didn't even want to bring his name up, and have not done so with the others. I'm sure you know some of them as well! Good discussion goes a long way to helping people see what's out there, so no problem here. :)

 

Randy

 

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Patchcollector

Tom has been blamed for every patch that does not fit to known types ever made in Asia.

 

Tom had a computer chip business in Taiwan and traveled all over Asia buying up as much insignia as he could find. I ran into him in shops in Subic Bay and in Taipei.

 

After he passed away and his son started selling his incredibly large collection, we had many talks and compared notes on different shops we all visited then.

 

When I asked about his dad making stuff in the Thailand, TD flat out said they did not make any of that stuff and all the patches were sold to them in old shops they tracked down. TD said maybe the shops made them and told them it was old stock, but he and his father never had any of the USAF patches made for them in Thailand.

 

I have / had known the Clinton's for a long time and one thing I know is they were / are not liars, and they would have / had no reason to not tell the truth about where they found the stuff Tom Sr. had.

 

I have heard all the accusations of Tom Sr supposedly making these "puffy" back patches, and according to TD, those rumors were started by some European USAF patch collectors who his dad wouldn't do business with, and they tried to talk crap about him and start rumors. I have heard the stories that Tom had made these since back in the late 80's- early 90's.

 

 

 

Great to see this post.I'm not sure where the "Thai patches made after the war" thing started.Perhaps some of the older collectors saw some pieces that,because of variations in construction,or the date that they appeared, didn't line up the way that they thought they should be,and branded them as postwar made copies.

A couple of things to remember;with theatre made patches there are always going to be variations.Also,with the advent of the internet and sites like eBay,many authentic patches are continually coming "out of the woodwork".I noticed a surge in Vietnam War era pieces showing up on eBay during the mid 2000's.Sadly,I believe that this may be related to more Vets passing.

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Great to see this post.I'm not sure where the "Thai patches made after the war" thing started.Perhaps some of the older collectors saw some pieces that,because of variations in construction,or the date that they appeared, didn't line up the way that they thought they should be,and branded them as postwar made copies.

A couple of things to remember;with theatre made patches there are always going to be variations.Also,with the advent of the internet and sites like eBay,many authentic patches are continually coming "out of the woodwork".I noticed a surge in Vietnam War era pieces showing up on eBay during the mid 2000's.Sadly,I believe that this may be related to more Vets passing.

Unfortunately, it's a fact. See that F-105 patch I posted. Was told directly it was done in the 80s by one of the people involved. He would have no reason to lie, especially since it could have put him in a bad light for helping get them done.

 

Randy

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River Patrol

Unfortunately, it's a fact. See that F-105 patch I posted. Was told directly it was done in the 80s by one of the people involved. He would have no reason to lie, especially since it could have put him in a bad light for helping get them done.

 

Randy

 

That is very convincing then....

 

Now here's the issue.....What details about the 105 patch make it distinct from original Thai patches?

 

You should try to make a list of everything unique about that 105 patch....it will be helpful for future generations of patch collectors.

 

Once we can make that list, we'll be able to apply it to other patches (including Dave/Thor's patch).

 

Steve

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vintageproductions

Randy I totally get what you are saying.

 

It's just like all the stuff Harry MacAllistar made for collectors that some now think are original pieces.

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Randy I totally get what you are saying.

 

It's just like all the stuff Harry MacAllistar made for collectors that some now think are original pieces.

Bob-

 

That is a whole 'nother story in itself!

 

Randy

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