Interwar 1st Cavalry Division SSI The real deal or a fantasy?

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's we have Deep Purple meeting up with the 1st Cav Div. There's always been a great deal of reluctance amongst collector when it comes to the interwar 1st Cavalry Division series. Not only are original tough to find but they've been reproduced since the 40's and on top of it Fantastical color combinations have been made to further muddle the waters. Compounding the issue into another fold is the basic materials used! The attached link below is covered in good measure by a well seasoned collector/historian/author:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104973-felt-1st-cav-div-patches/?hl=mpage&do=findComment&comment=779425

 

When I first seen this patch on eBay last week I'll admit I thought it was 1st CD, Med Trps patch. But upon closer inspection of the vendors image the bend clearly wasn't the color maroon.

 

What threw me off was that the materials used are period correct but the bend/piping combination is not one of the seven in the Type VI series. It was confirmed by the vendors that the bend is deep purple in color.

 

Well, the color purple was never part of the 19 variations in this series worn between 1922-1934.

 

Remember this was a Regular Army outfit and didn't have the liberties like the N.G. and Reserves units. All sorts of SSI weirdness occurred with Guards and Reserve troops.

 

In conclusion, the purple bend and white piped 1st Cavalry Division patch is not part of the original series.

[1SG_1st_Cav]

Check page #43 of the ASMIC publication for January - March 1969. The image in the lower left corner will explain what this patch was for.

It reads" An unathorized insignia of a Gold Shield charged with two white bendlets fimbricated maroon. In chief, a black horse's head.

This unauthorized patch was for the 1st Veterinary Troop.

FIRST TEAM ~ SIR!

[tredhed2]

What kiaiokalewa is saying is that the purple is not what's it supposed to be, which is maroon. The Trading Post cite states maroon. Here is what the 1st Vet Troop patch looked like in maroon.

[kiaiokalewa]

Mahalo Katonk for the clarification between the colors PURPLE and MAROON. Also thanks for posting your patch. By the way here's the correct title of the maroon bend with two white pipes w/black horse head (AG 421.7 1st Cavalry Division, 10-31-21).

 

MEDICAL TROOPS OF DIVISION NOT ATTACHED TO BRIGADES, REGIMENTS OF OTHER UNITS. COMMISSIONED & ENLISTED PERSONNEL.

 

Here's the one I have in my collection. It belonged to Sgt. Red Kelly of Texarkana, Texas, circa. 1924.

[kiaiokalewa]

Oh, by the way and in reference to the January-March 1969 issue of the Trading Post page 43; the item of discussion was a Distinctive Insignia which was never authorized but worn by the troops.

 

The Shoulder Sleeve Insignia however was an authorized insignia approved October 31, 1921.

[kiaiokalewa]

On eBay there is a 1st Cavalry Division Medical Troop patch that is drawing some attention to it. Unfortunately it is a reproduction but likely will not sale for as such. As a community service don't waste your money unless you want it as a filler piece and you get it for under twenty bucks.

 

Original examples are shown in post 3 and 4 above.

[tredhed2]

I agree with millionaires that the 1st Cav Div med troop is a repro.

[kiaiokalewa]

[kiaiokalewa]

[kiaiokalewa]

Just now, kiaiokalewa said:

Well, I guess who every got this turkey is out $600.  

[Wake1941]

8 minutes ago, kiaiokalewa said:

Well, I guess who every got this turkey is out $600.  

Ouch, the marksman badge can’t be more than 10 years old 

[kiaiokalewa]

The First Machine Gun Squadron SSI on this uniform is not representative of the authorized and worn by the troops Shoulder Insignia.  Two red bendlets and red horse head upon yellow shield is the proper charges for this insignia.  

 

This fantastical patch is not only un-representitive of any of the 19 approved Shoulder Insignia of the 1st Cavalry Division's unit specific insignia but it also uses materials in its construction that are not correct for the short 14 years these Shoulder Insignia were worn by the troops.

[kiaiokalewa]

6 minutes ago, Wake1941 said:

Ouch, the marksman badge can’t be more than 10 years old 

Yup.  I wanted someone else to point that one out.  

[kiaiokalewa]

19 minutes ago, Wake1941 said:

Ouch, the marksman badge can’t be more than 10 years old 

Yup.  I wanted someone else to point that one out.  

[kiaiokalewa]

For those wondering what an actual 1st MG Sq. Shoulder Insignia is suppose to look like here's one on a uniform in the collection.  

[mortaydc60]

Great information John as usual. Could you explain to me and others how you were able to determine from photo that the material was not correct. Understand if you have patch in hand you can feel the material but need your help as to visually determine. Mahalo

 

Mort

[tredhed2]

If you are referring to the one on the uniform, the yellow material is not woven, and neither are the too narrow bend and horse head. Additionally, the patch is a fantasy patch for a non-existent 1st Cav Div 1st Bde unit between 1922-1934. There was NO such 1st Cav Div unit  that wore a red horse and single red bend. None of the units wore such single narrow bends. Attached is another fake.

 

If you are referring to the one that started this thread, the yellow shield has non-woven felt and the horsehead is unlike ANY other horsehead. The shield is puckered, and melton wool does not pucker or shrink, even when wet. That's why it was used on so many interwar patches.      

 

1st Bde - Red Horse head

 

2nd Bde - Blue Horse head

 

Div Troops and Troops not attached to Bdes - Black horse head

[kiaiokalewa]

6 hours ago, mortaydc60 said:

Great information John as usual. Could you explain to me and others how you were able to determine from photo that the material was not correct. Understand if you have patch in hand you can feel the material but need your help as to visually determine. Mahalo

 

Mort

 

Mort, Steve Johnson tells it best several years ago on the forum (see attached thread) and Dave just now reinforced what Steve stated.  

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104973-felt-1st-cav-div-patches/?hl=mpage&do=findComment&comment=779425

 

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's a screen shot of Steve's comments on material used subject.

[kiaiokalewa]

The half of Steve's response.

[kiaiokalewa]

 

 

The patch illustration that Dave provided above is a great example of a way after the fact made reproduction.  I've gone through great lengths in discussing this particular type i.e. horsehead style, in Part VI of my 1st Cavalry Division series featured in ASMICs quarterly publication Trading Post due to be in circulation here very shortly.  

 

The materials in this particular reproduction  looks to be of Melton Wool which is period correct however the designs color combination are not part of the original unit specific 1st Cavalry Division Shoulder Insignia approved and authorized for wear by the War Department as Dave already pointed out.  

 

 

 

[kiaiokalewa]

Here we go again.

[kiaiokalewa]

Beware.

[tredhed2]

This is too funny. The 203rd CA was never assigned/attached 1st Cav Div, never in Philippines (nor any of its elements), not even sure what color the bend is - maroon? Certainly not the correct color of maroon. The Medical branch patch for the 1st Cav Div has a maroon bend and two white bendlets.  

 

"Guaranteed authentic?" What, the individual pieces?

 

The 203rd CA (AA) was famous for starting the "Battle of Los Angeles" on 26 Feb 42.       

[kiaiokalewa]

So great patches coming out of this eBay vendor (Florida I believe) However, this 1st Cav. Div. Patch is not one of them.  Although a much better put together than most but its still is a reproduction.