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So I don't do the real or what thing much, but wanted to hear some other opinions on this item that popped up on the bay this morning. What could be a rare piece of USMC trench art, but it have some questions about whether it was done in the period, or more recently. I hope someone can post the actual photos here, but here is the link:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-Trench-Art-Mess-tin-USMC-carved-/282434673484?hash=item41c26b1b4c:g:k1UAAOSwzqFY8qYG

 

While the art work looks consistent with others I have seen, the depiction of the Navy Cross medal has me scratching my head. The NC was established in November 1920 if I remember correctly, so this was either done well after the armistice, or very well after the armistice if you know what I mean. I have done no research on the Marine listed and whether it is possible he received a NC, (most, not all, but most received the DSC in the war and were awarded the NC for the same action a couple years after begging the question why isn't there a DSC depicted as well?) Thanks in advance for what I hope is some other thoughts here. Kevin

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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I don't like it. It looks to me like the engraving is to new and has no dirt or patina in the groves like you would except from a 100 year old piece.

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"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."

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I checked the 4th Brigade roster, and sure enough, Harry I. Baker, Cpl., 66th Company 5th regiment, Navy Cross, DSC, Silver Star citation. Doesn't mean much to authenticate except the info at least matches. But why engrave the CDG and not the DSC? Since this was most definitely done 1920 or later, still a bit of a mystery. The seller doesn't seem to be knowledgeable about the piece at all and is probably a picker that came across it somewhere.

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Thanks guys

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Does the engraving look like it was done with an electric pen or engraving tool? Would this be period correct for the 1920s?

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" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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Hmmmmm..................the use of the NC is certainly a red flag as is, IMHO, the use of the very early USMC insignia. I would expect to see an Eagle, Globe & Anchor insignia and/or perhaps a 2nd Div Indianhead, The production date of this mess kit etching is definitely in doubt. CAVEAT EMPTOR! Semper Fi.....Bob

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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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I saw this and am a believer it was recently done. I have seen examples of mess kit engravings by Marines while they were in France, I have seen and even own one that was pulled out of the ground at Belleau Wood so it was not uncommon for these to be done this way overseas as a means of passing time/killing boredom. I too am a bit leery of the NC since he would not have received this until 1919-20ish plus the wide strip on the NC is not a 1919 first award variation. Also the cuts in the aluminum gleam a bit too much for my comfort, just my humble opinion.

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Always looking for quality WWI and WWII USMC items. Particularly 4th Marine Brigade related items, medals, uniforms helmets ephemera, Also WWII USMC items including uniforms, medals, etc. to combat veterans especially Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima. Let me know what you have. Semper Fi


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Have you all not recognized that this person is the seller who weeks ago was trying to sell multiple officer EGA hat and collar insignia from the 1880's - 1890's? They were completely humped up and attempts to fool. The traits that were being copied can only be seen on this forum and in recent books on the subject. Even though done with some very poor jeweler technique, they were easy to spot fakes. Seller claims ignorance on it all, stating picked up from an estate. All sales have been fakes, including this attempt at rocker etching and baiting with all things cool like a Navy Cross and early 1800's Shako device (which would have been relatively unknown to a WW1 Marine). No attempt at aging. You should not buy from this seller.

 

Mike

Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
info@eagleglobeandanchor.com
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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I looked at his completed auctions the other day and those were the most butt ugly fakes I had ever seen even though I have never owned a period set these were pure junk.Someone paid silly money for the.He either had two sets or the first buyer returned them and they resold.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
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"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

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You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Thanks Mike I actually had another forum member PM me on the humped up officers ega's. I appreciate you weighing in. This silly mess kit fetched a lot of attention and was over $250 last time I checked. Shame! This guy obviously has a listing of the Fourth Brigade and isn't afraid to use it. No telling what he will attempt next. Kevin

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Does the engraving look like it was done with an electric pen or engraving tool? Would this be period correct for the 1920s?

I was thinking the same thing....modern engraving tool, and no visible aging.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Aside from everything, all you need to look at is the Navy Cross, not only was it not awarded until 1919-20 but the variation he put on the kit has the wide white stripe which was the later variation.

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Always looking for quality WWI and WWII USMC items. Particularly 4th Marine Brigade related items, medals, uniforms helmets ephemera, Also WWII USMC items including uniforms, medals, etc. to combat veterans especially Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima. Let me know what you have. Semper Fi


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Thanks Kevin that is a good catch as well. The thing is up over $350 now.

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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I was thinking the same thing....modern engraving tool, and no visible aging.

 

The technique used was done as far back as man had tools. It is accomplished with a sharp flat edged awl and simply rocked back and forth with pressure. No special training or advanced machine tool needed. One merely needs some bone of artistic talent and imagination.

 

Mike

Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
info@eagleglobeandanchor.com
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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The technique used was done as far back as man had tools. It is accomplished with a sharp flat edged awl and simply rocked back and forth with pressure. No special training or advanced machine tool needed. One merely needs some bone of artistic talent and imagination.

 

Mike

Mike,

 

It is the style of engraving that concerns me. It appears to me as if an electric pen was used as you don't see many breaks in the strokes of the lettering. The engraving strokes form "V"s which looks like it was continuous. Now I am no expert on engraving but I compared it to the original I used to own. I would like to know if the style of engraving on the mess kit was possible with the tools commonly available in the 1910s-20s.

 

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" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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Wow, ended at over $800.00. Wonder if he will do a MOH variety next?

I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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I don't collect these but my son has collected trench art for the last 10 years. He has a focus on canteens and mess kits. First words out of his mouth: fake! corrosion stops where engraving begins and I am baffled by the sale price. :o

"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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I know diddly about WW1 USMC, but I do know engraving. 150% sure it is electro pen. Like stated above, there are no breaks in the engraving. Add that lack of aging, and you have a budding small businessman!

 

My .02

 

John

We used to have to engrave our tools for use on the flight line with those electro pen engravers, I was lucky to even make a 1 look legible, they vibrate and bounce all over the place but they leave little dots for the engraving. I dont see dots. Im not familiar with any other engraving tools but I would imagine it would be hard to do that work with an engraver that spins as well? Baffled.

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We used to have to engrave our tools for use on the flight line with those electro pen engravers, I was lucky to even make a 1 look legible, they vibrate and bounce all over the place but they leave little dots for the engraving. I dont see dots. Im not familiar with any other engraving tools but I would imagine it would be hard to do that work with an engraver that spins as well? Baffled.

Actually, with a bit of practice on a flat surface, you can do it. Tools are another story! I've never, ever, never seen anyone who could engrave a tool. My oldest son is retired from the AF, and was in vehicle maintenance and had to engrave tools. I learned to engrave from my dad, who was a photoengraver, and my tool engraving looked like the work of a non too coordinated monkey! Back in the 70's there was a move on to engrave your drivers lic number on valuables, and like you say, hard to do. I'd bet my eye teeth this was done with an pencil engraver though!

 

I totally agree about the fresh look, lack of wear/dirt etc. Bottom line as stated above, junk!

 

 

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a cool photo I came across in the March 1918 issue of Recruiter's Bulletin:

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Semper Fidelis, to all Marines past, present and future..

*Remembering CWO3 James Warren Maddox, USMC 1957-2018*

LOOKING FOR EARLY USMC CHEVRONS & RANK INSIGNIA, COMPETITIVE MARKSMANSHIP AWARDS, RECRUITING MATERIALS AND POSTERS, PHOTOGRAPHS, PENNANTS, SIGNATURES, EARLY NUMBERED CAMPAIGN MEDALS, PRE-1900 USMC GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL, USMC ENGRAVED NAVY MARKSMANSHIP MEDAL, ANY MATERIALS RELATED TO 1ST BATTALION 9TH MARINES OR ANY OF THE THREE SHIPS BEARING THE NAME "USS MADDOX".


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  • 1 month later...

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