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Need help with my Dad' stuff


Glider Pilot Daughter

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Glider Pilot Daughter

I originally signed into this forum to identify my fathers glider pilot wings. I learned that because I have tons of records, pictures, and items that I should sell them as a group. I am in the process of organizing everything and trying to identify items. I have been able to identify his medals because the full size medal are in the original labeled boxes and I have documentation from them. The ribbons however are confusing. I do not understand what the little add-on pins mean. They were all dumped into a box with other items. I do have duplicates of the ribbons that were stored in the original medal boxes and are in perfect condition. In the other picture are items that I am unsure which are WWII items and which were later. My father stayed in the military so I know the captain bars were after WWII. He was a Flight Officer and a 2nd Lt in the war. I would love any help with these items.

 

Peggy

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The stars are for Campaigns he was involved in.

 

The Arrow head is for an Invasion he was in as part of the Assault units.

 

Oak leafs are for addition awards in lieu of a medal he would wear the oak leaf for addition awards of the same medal.

 

Loos like the disc i eagle is post war service in the Air Force as they went to Air Force after 1947 prior to that they Were Army Air Force.The silver/grey finnish is standard for US AIR FORCE insignias.The US in a CIrcle are collar discs for enlisted.

 

The small gold egle is a "ruptueduck" or Honorable Discharge lapel pin.Somethig WW2 veterans recieved for being honorablydicharged at wars end

 

Appears you have an Italian badge as well.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Hi Peggy - Welcome to the forum. I can help with the WWII ribbons, but the post-WWII items I won't be much help on. Sorry.

 

On the ribbons (2nd picture), the top one with two stars is the Europe Africa Middle East campaign medal. Each star denotes participation in a separate qualifying campaign.

 

First ribbon 2nd row is the WWII Victory Medal, then another EAME, with four campaign stars and one arrow / spearhead for participation in an assault. The 3rd medal in that row is the American Campaign Medal.

 

The third row is: Another EAME with five campaign stars; American Defense Medal; and, the Air Medal.

 

The fourth row is faded to the point I can't guess, and I don't recognize the last row.

 

Thank you for sharing these, and I'm sure you are rightfully very proud of your Dad.

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BILL THE PATCH

Since these are your father's​, why are you selling , if you don't mind me asking? Don't you want to keep them . Or maybe another family member might want them. I know it's none of my business, just curious.

 

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THis may help with some of the USAF medals.

 

http://www.officialmilitaryribbons.com/united_states_air_force_ribbons_in_precedence.html

 

 

 

Blacksmith gave a good break down on the awards and devices.The National Defense came in post WW2

 

Im guessin the faded ribbons are a dupicate of the last set shown

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Will add the ribbon with oak leafs is an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award.Its a post WW2 award as well.I dont recall the date of the award but someone will add it here.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Peggy,

 

Your father may have started as an enlisted man and was a Reserve officer on active duty. The ribbons represent different parts of his career, stating with before World War II and on into Korea. I'm guessing he left the Air Force before Vietnam. Also, he was an expert marksman either with a pistol or rifle. I would suspect that the rows would have been worn individually or in a stack of at least three rows.

 

Starting from the bottom row, left to right, are the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award with device (means two awards), the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal (probably for Korea). The ribbon bar is correct in orientation.

 

The second row from the bottom is upside down. From left to right, the Air Force Longevity Service Award with three devices (means at least 16 years in service), the Armed Forces Reserve Medal (represents at least 10 years as a Reserve officer), and again, National Defense.

 

The third row from the bottom (also upside down) is from left to right, the European, African, Middle Eastern Campaign Medal (WW II Europe, Africa, Italy, etc.) with five service stars (means your Dad saw a lot of action), the American Defense Service Medal (for service in the national emergency proceeding WW II), and the Air Medal (a military decoration for outstanding achievement in aerial flight).

 

The fourth row from the bottom (also upside down) is from left to right, the World War II Victory Medal, the EAME Medal with four stars and arrowhead (means participation in an assault landing -- the first ones initially involved -- perhaps D-Day), and the American Campaign Medal (for service in the US, Canada, and South America during WW II).

 

The top row is the EAME ribbon again.

 

I'm guessing that the second, third and fourth rows were worn on his uniform with the row that includes the Air Medal on the very top.

 

Begs to ask what your father did in the Air Force and where are the medals?

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It is stated he was a Glider pilot and Flight officer then 2nd Lt. during the war.Im curious if he joined the reserves or guard after the war and had to go in as enlisted then rose back to rank?

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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As mentioned, please consider carefully whether you really want to part with these symbols of your father’s service. My family discarded my grandfather’s things and I came along many years later and really wish they had been kept and preserved. You might have family members who would cherish these things now or even long into the future.

 

That said, if you do decide to sell them please do not break them up. Keep them in a group and ensure they go to someone who can and will preserve your father’s legacy.

 

All in all, most of the very common items you’ve posted would not add up to much in terms of a sale, so you’d be discarding important family history for a very small amount of money. I’ve parted with many things over the years and always regretted it, wishing I had the things and never remembering what I did with the money.

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With all due respect, while I know intentions are good, the question was not 'should I sell or keep?'.

 

Those decisions are very personal, and are the business of the family alone.

 

This remains unchanged, whether the items are worth $5 or $50,000.

 

I'd caution us as a community to not appear judgmental, even accidentally.

 

Again, hearts are in the right place, but none of our bee's wax.

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I agree and hesitated in posting, but wanted to offer some perspective that might not have been considered as she contemplates selling this group. (She didn't ask the question I answered, but the purpose of her post is to ID these items for possible sale.)

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Glider Pilot Daughter

Doyler, Blacksmith, Bill the Patch, flyboy 53, and 12A54,

 

Wow, I am overwhelmed by all the help. I am also impressed by how much information you people were able to learn from a few items.

 

I appreciate your concern over me selling my collection. I will be keeping a few items (one set of wings and a row of miniature medals). I also am in the process of organizing and scanning all his records (over 100 pages so far) and I have scanned all 300+ photographs. I am now 73 years-old and have no relatives. I must downsize and so much find a home for these items. At this time it seems like a collector will keep his personal story intact and I am sure my Dad would be delighted to see me get some much needed money for his items.

 

Flyboy nailed it. He did reenlist after resigning after the war and then climbed back up through the ranks over a 22 year career. Most of that career was in communications. I can remember an organization called AACS. He received two AF Military Merit Medals during this time. I remember some mention of him being a rifle marksman and I have pictures take of him with a rife during the war. However the only other time would have been in the 1960's while he was in Alaska at a remote Radar site where he did some shooting.

 

I don't know of any pre-WWII activities other than his being in a Soaring club. He did not go to Korea, but went post war to that area to help with the communication systems. He retired in 1964.

 

I have the documentation for the Air Medal. It was for Market-Garden. A friend who he flew with said that he was D-day+1, however I have not been able to confirm that from his individual flight records that I have.

 

I do have several of the full sized medals in boxes. My father did not wear any medals unless he was required to do so. I wish I could remember what he actually did wear on his uniform. The only reason that these medal, photo, and records exist is that my mother kept everything possible.

 

Again than you all, I will post if I find more items that I don't understand.

 

Peggy

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mhalstead1950

Glad to hear that you are keeping a few items, and the ones you are selling are to be sold as a group! It's good that you care enough to go through it all, and find out more as so few people do anymore.

Currently looking for K.I.A. Purple Hearts and Identified groupings to Nebraska and Wyoming veterans.

donation2019.gif

 

 

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Peggy

 

Glad to help what little I could.

 

Thankyou for sharing your fathers history.These veterans all have an intresting story to tell but often its only told by a few artifacts left over.

 

I have two Glider pilots uniforms and actually knew the one personally.He flew the 2nd drop for Market Garden(Holland) and then earned a Arrow head for Operation Varsity(Germay 24 March 1944).I was very fotunate to ne able to talk to him and he was willing to share his stories as well as some photos he had on slides.He made copies for me which I purchased.He would also use the slides for presentations at schools and reunions.He like your father entered into the Air Force after WW2 serving as a maintenance officer for a reserve unit and retired a Lt.Colonel in 1964.

 

Possibly if you have his Flight Log book he may have written in it his missions and Operation Market Garden began on 17 September 1944.Possible your father and the man I knew were there at the same time or even in the same Troop Carrier Group.

 

The Silver medical pin in your collection is for the Medical Service Corps as I recall that was formed in 1947.The gold buttons with eagle on them are for the uniform he would have worn in WW2.The pewter colored buttons are the ones the Air Force adopted with the Air Force seal on them and worn from 1947 on ward.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Peggy,

 

I can't tell you what to do, but I understand lightening the load of a household.

 

I've had the fortune of passing on to grandkids some of my uniform items, medals, patches, etc. My oldest daughter "reappropriated" some of my dark blue wool dress shirts while I was still in the Air Force, and enjoyed wearing them casually with jeans. One granddaughter, who's a Girl Scout, snagged one of my compasses. Her brother got one of my Air Force-issue pocket knives and my Desert Storm-era "chocolate" boonie hats.

 

However, I would suggest keeping the full-sized medals, the papers, log book and wings. As a group, those items have incredible value. Let the rest go for sale, including the miniature medals. This is because the rules have tightened with the DoD in terms of family descendants applying for replacement medals. You might never get them back and someone may some day come looking for the information in the log books.

 

Then, if there are no family members to leave these mementos, consider eventually donating them to a museum or veteran's group where they could be kept as a memorial.

 

I'm a past American Legion County Commander. Most of the posts in this county have display cases where artifacts such as these are properly displayed in locked display cases and appreciated. Your father would be remembered by his fellow veterans in a very meaningful way.

 

You might even have the benefit of using the donation as a tax deduction.

 

I learned the value of doing just that about 15 years ago when my wife and I bought a family farm that was a homestead. We donated a lot of the artifacts left behind to the County Fair Board in that family's name. An assortment of medals and year books for a P-47 pilot/family member, KIA a month after D-Day, were donated to the American Legion where that kick-started a collection of donated artifacts. The surviving family members now revel that they can go to the County Fair and see their family's contributions on permanent display. The same holds true with the medals and such donated to the American Legion.

 

A year ago, I cleaned out a closet and did the same with some of my own uniforms. It's kind of neat visiting that Legion Post and finding that I'm on permanent display.

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Peggy,

 

You might consider to contact the National WW2 Glider Pilot Association. I am pretty sure they are interested.

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Donating can be a great thing...just know that its wanted or how solvent the organization is.

 

Locally our Legions and VFW'S are struggling.Many have closed or tried to combine.The post I belong to as a Sons of The Legion has no building of its own anymore.I was recently informed I will have to find another post as ours isnt going to continue with a Sons Chapter.The Legions and VFW's here have no funds for displays or those intrested in maintaining donated items.Just friday one member walked into the museum I was at with a WW1 yard long from a 1st Army Ambulance Company.They were clearing out storage and didnt want the yard long but didnt want to put it in the dumpster.The woman who is curator of the museum basically turned the guy away due to it having no visible connection to the musem or county.She told him if he could tie it to the county they "may"

consider it.In all likelihood its from our county where the post is and he was directed to the museum here.This woman has no clue or back round in military history, collections or artifacts.She has a masters degree and can speak non stop about politics and geo political mumbo jumbo of South America (her mothers country) but has views the myseum should be more of an Art Museum than the Military Fort the museums based on.

 

Just saying if you donate be sure its going to be used or appreciated.You can also stipulate its loan for a period of time in case family come forth and want it or if its not used or displayed it can be returned or forwarded to another.Not all institutions are willing to take or are intrested in items.

 

As for the GO association or Museum I heard they had some internal issues a few years ago and not sure if or how long it will continue.If an institution closes or folds you may inquire to where or what would happen to your donation.

 

There is nothing wrong with a decision to sell something as well.Its your property and if the money is much needed income it will far outweigh a tax write off.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Doyler, what I am telling is that there is an option like donating to the Silent Wings Museum, an option that might have been overlooked. Whatever an owner does with his or her belongings is the choise of the owner.

As this is WW2 Glider Pilot related, it has a special place for me and it would be a shame if something happens to the material without the option of donating it to the museum.

So may it be totally clear that I leave the choise to Peggy, and this is something we agree on.

 

What we probably not agree about is, what you call, questions about the 'solvent of an organization', 'initial issues a few years ago (within the GP Association and/or Museum)'and about what will happen to the donation. So it might be good to give my view on this.

 

The National WW2 Glider Pilot Association is a veteran organization. That leads to the ultimate ending of the organization as it exist today, but I can asure you that wheels are in motion, working on a future of the organization. This after what was seen with the British Glider pilot Association, which stopped.

 

Now, although the NWW2GPA and the Silent Wings Museum are closely connected, they are not one and the same. The museum is run by the city of Lubbock. One of the major differences between the museum and collectors (like you probably are) is that the museum as a special equiped room to preserve documents.

 

It is correct that not all institutions want/need what is offered. Talking about the future of donated items is difficult. That does not change much as if it is donated or sold. A buyer/collecter might as easily split up the items he/she bought and seel parts of it again. I have heard collectors say that they buy the stuff and see it as an investment (it will be worth more $$ after some more years).

A difference with an institution as a museum and a collector is mostly that one is open for research, while the other is not.

 

I am a member of the NWW2GPA for about ten years now. And in those years I have not heard about the Association nor the Museum having any issues. When you write that in your post, it seems to me like making 'fake news' or 'alternative facts'.

Where it is each individual's choise to do with her/his belongings, it sure would be good if it is bases on facts, instead of incorrect information.

 

Again, as mentioned, it is all Peggy's choise, not mine nor any one else's. As long as it is not tossed away (and I asume we all heard such stories, that something was lost forever).

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BILL THE PATCH

I'll agree with doyler, it's not fake news, or alternative facts. Please read other threads about donating to museums, it can be a horror show, or never see the light of day. EX: the New York state military museum in Saratoga springs were selling real items( donated) in there thrift shop. This I've seen personally, jump boots, uniforms etc, etc, when they feel nothing is worth displaying they will get rid of it, eventually. Maybe not all museums but this one does. I'm not even sure that's legal, but being donated they then have the right to do what they please. It's better to give or sell as a group to someone who will appreciate it and maybe use as a teaching tool for future generations.

 

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We've shifted away from Peggy's intent with a discussion of the viability of veteran's groups and museums.

 

Nice slam.

 

My point about donating the items -- especially to "a" museum or "a" veterans group is because selling these artifacts may not generate any substantial amount of income, given their age and condition.

 

These are artifacts owned by a former military member. They were worn by that individual during the course of his career. They represent an individual's service, duty and sacrifice. They tell a story.

 

I have the fortune of being given family artifacts, dating from the Revolutionary War, that are invaluable because of the family connection. Yet, I've also had unscrupulous individuals try to ferret them away, claiming the items have no value when they are instead, one family's history. That's what is the bottom line with this thread.

 

All the donor needs to do is carefully evaluate the organization or the museum before making the donation and then make sure those items can be visited from time to time.

 

Otherwise, the seller may have to come to grips with the fact that the items may not have the value once believed.

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BILL THE PATCH

Your absolutely right, I did not intend to disparage any museums or vets org, my apologies. Peggy will make the right decision when she choose, also I don't think doyler was spreading fake news or alternative facts like mentioned, NICE SLAM

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

 

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This thread has turned into something it didn't need to be - and frankly wasn't asked for. Was a simple identification question, and folks felt the need to insert themselves into the personal decisions of the family. I'll say it again, NONE of our business. (Sorry, pet peeve)

 

Since the museum / organization recommendation was made, I'll say I am in Doyler and Bill's camp. I would be very cautious to do so. I have read far too many examples of so-called "museums" taking a donation, that ends up for sale months later, because it didn't fit their collection.

 

Also, many veteran's organizations are struggling with keeping membership (sadly), as younger generations seemingly shift from 'brick and mortar' to social media communities. So I'm not sure that's a great option either.

 

And most long-standing museums are stuffed full, with much of their holdings in storage - some now actively refusing to take all but certain items. Don't get me wrong, I love museums, when they're managed appropriately and compassionately. But as Bill said, too many horror stories that end in items getting sold, and the family ends up with nothing. If I was considering a donation to a museum, I would make sure I was 100% clear on their "deaccession" policy, and ask for a copy in writing, as well as documentation on how they are structured as an entity (not-for-profit, etc).

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No flyboy, respectfully, the "bottom line" of this thread was someone asking for help to identify some items; NOT asking you for recommendations on what to do with them.

 

Also, "substantial amount of income" means different things to different people. So not sure any individual can make that decision for someone else.

 

Anybody recommending caution in making donations is not a slam, as you call it, but trying to protect the family.

 

Is it a few bad apples destroying the whole barrel? You bet, but it happens, and that is the cautionary tale.

 

Many of us are veterans, and fully understand what these items mean, having earned the right to wear them ourselves.

 

Overall, I think we are saying the same thing: If you are going to give them away, make sure you know who you are giving them to - specifically what they are going to do with them. I think everybody was trying to say that in their own way.

 

 

We've shifted away from Peggy's intent with a discussion of the viability of veteran's groups and museums.

 

Nice slam.

 

My point about donating the items -- especially to "a" museum or "a" veterans group is because selling these artifacts may not generate any substantial amount of income, given their age and condition.

 

These are artifacts owned by a former military member. They were worn by that individual during the course of his career. They represent an individual's service, duty and sacrifice. They tell a story.

 

I have the fortune of being given family artifacts, dating from the Revolutionary War, that are invaluable because of the family connection. Yet, I've also had unscrupulous individuals try to ferret them away, claiming the items have no value when they are instead, one family's history. That's what is the bottom line with this thread.

 

All the donor needs to do is carefully evaluate the organization or the museum before making the donation and then make sure those items can be visited from time to time.

 

Otherwise, the seller may have to come to grips with the fact that the items may not have the value once believed.

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Market

 

Thanks for your reply and insights.

 

Im am well aware of the Museum and Association.I had provided a display for the area 17th Airborne veterans for 15 years up until they stopped having a meeting here each year due to members passing and the overall age of those who could attend.Many had even attended with sons or daughters due to age and inability to drive themselves.I provided my own collection(yes Im a lowly collector as you pointed out).The display was provided at no cost to the 17th group where as their own association who had a historical division only brought poorly made copies of morning reorts to "sell" to the members.The items the division historians had were stored in a trailer and often only used once a year at the National 17th Airborne reunion.My small display was there for the enjoyment of the members who attended.I met many veterans and even family and heard great stories of these men often promted by an article on display.Several of the wives and grown children would stand there in awe and listen as they had never heard their husband or father speak of his war time experiance.Seeing my display the division historians wanted to obtain a couple of mannequins.I didnt have any but knew another who did and gave them contact information.They purchased these and I gained no profit from the transaction.

 

My comments more than likely pre dates your association with the organization and what I was told personally by a Glider pilot(Richard*Redfern).He would attend the meeting here and said there were issues at that time(pre 1999).There was discussion of what would happen if one organization ceased to operate.At this period he told me there was talk of the closing or disbanding if something didnt change.This pilot spoke of the closing of the Museum which I recall was in Terrell Texas(which I recall closed in 2001)and moved.Im glad it didnt close and they found a home in Lubbock and both the association and museum are operational.

 

This is an on going concern with any organization.Money,resources,operational costs,membership all come into play and at some point many places have to close due to these issues.I think many people are not aware of this possibility and believe that a museum or organization will always be there which isnt always the case.Grants and donations are often not enough to keep organizations running and I know personally of a museum here who sells on line to generate income and reduce the duplicate or unused items they have no need for or cannot keep and display due to storage issues.

 

No reporting of"fake news".Saying "fake news" is like saying every collector is trying to cash out or is just in it for investment.The statement I made was based on conversations with a man I personally knew and considered a friend.His concerns were for both the organization and museum.

 

As for collectors not sharing or having the ability to be open for research this forum proves different.Many collectors have spent hours here doing research,providing free information,research for others and sharing their collections to the public(here and at events) and to the world via the internet.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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