507th PIR M1C ID help - meaning of red triangle

[Maple Creek]

Yesterday I was very fortunate to acquire a grouping of items belonging to Private Arthur Eller of the 507th PIR. I've just started doing research on Eller and the items in this lot. I found one roster listing him as being with the 507th when it was part of the 82nd Airborne Division during the Normandy campaign and later with the regiment was transferred to the 17th Airborne Division where he participated in Operation Varsity.

 

What's the meaning of the red triangle on the helmet? I can't find this pictured in any of my reference books. There is similar sized black triangle with a dot in the middle on his musette bag.

 

A white triangle was used for anti-tank and anti-aircraft units within the 82nd. Could it be for an anti-tank/aircraft unit?

 

The helmet is an M1C.

 

Mark D.

[Costa]

NICE GROUPING---------- LOVE THE LID

[jkash23686]

The triangle is used by the 507th as a tac mark much like the 101st used the card suits. I used to own a red one as well. Have never seen the marking that large on a helmet before do you have a close up?

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/280939-my-17th-airborne-helmets/?hl=%2B17th+%2Bairborne

[sgtdorango]

Wow that is one nice group...love that m1c!....mike

[TFH]

Hi,

 

Authur ELLER is listing in C/507th PIR for Ardennes campaign and Varsity but I don' have fund he was part of the Normandy campaign.

I am fortunate to have several 507th PIR helmets with tactical marking (http://www.usmilitar...+17th +airborne) and have writing the first article on this subject in the french review Militaria Magazine.

I'll be curious to see better pics of your helmet. The triangle is very large. Is there a dot in the triangle ? The M1 looks like a SB with stainless steel rim and curiously M1C chinstraps. It seems to have received a lot a layers of paint before adding the triangle. Is the liner a paratrooper one ?

 

Richard

http://17th-airborne-in-the-bulge.eklablog.com/welcome-and-new-articles-c657731

[Maple Creek]

Hi Jkash, Bingo! That's a match with three of the helmets on your thread on 17th Airborne. But what does it mean exactly? Perhaps the triangle was a marking for the 507th PIR. What would a dot in the middle mean?

 

This the best photo I have available at the moment. The red is exaggerated in this image. I'll try to get a better photo soon.

 

Mark D.

 

The triangle is used by the 507th as a tac mark much like the 101st used the card suits. I used to own a red one as well. Have never seen the marking that large on a helmet before do you have a close up?

 

[Maple Creek]

Hi Richard, Great to connect with you! I found your website last night while doing internet research. I discovered a roster of men who served with the 507th http://www.usairborne.be/Roster/ROSTER-507PIR.pdf It's almost impossible to read, but Arthur Eller is listed. One column had notations for Operation Neptune (D-Day) and the other for Operation Varsity. Eller has notations in both, so that's what caused me to think he was in both Normandy and Varsity. I don't know what the column notations signify ("01-21" and "C47 42-93079" respectively), but I wrote to the person who posted the roster (Xavier from Belgium) to clarify.

 

The earliest M1Cs had stainless steel rims. The helmet was post-factory repainted. The liner is a Westinghouse paratrooper type, but not the very first one with wrong-size female snap buttons. I'll take detailed photos when I can manage.

 

Where are you getting your information on Eller? Anything else to share about him?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Mark D.

Hi,

 

Authur ELLER is listing in C/507th PIR for Ardennes campaign and Varsity but I don' have fund he was part of the Normandy campaign.

I am fortunate to have several 507th PIR helmets with tactical marking (http://www.usmilitar...+17th +airborne) and have writing the first article on this subject in the french review Militaria Magazine.

I'll be curious to see better pics of your helmet. The triangle is very large. Is there a dot in the triangle ? The M1 looks like a SB with stainless steel rim and curiously M1C chinstraps. It seems to have received a lot a layers of paint before adding the triangle. Is the liner a paratrooper one ?

 

Richard

http://17th-airborne-in-the-bulge.eklablog.com/welcome-and-new-articles-c657731

 

[Grant G.]

Would it be possible to see additional photos of the M1-C's chinstraps? The strap featuring the J-hook appears to be much too long. I am afraid that they might be aged reproductions.

[Justin]

Would it be possible to see additional photos of the M1-C's chinstraps? The strap featuring the J-hook appears to be much too long. I am afraid that they might be aged reproductions.

My thoughts exactly. Never seen originals that long

[David D]

Wow what a beautiful grouping

[jkash23686]

Would it be possible to see additional photos of the M1-C's chinstraps? The strap featuring the J-hook appears to be much too long. I am afraid that they might be aged reproductions.

 

+1 also the close up of the marking color shift aside doesn't give me a good feeling about it.

[Ronny67]

Ronny has a bad feeling about this one. Especially the talker chin cup in the grouping photo. More especially the poorly reproduced tac mark on the M1c. I hope I am wrong.

[Pudgy (V)]

Pudgy is with Ronny! Scary!

[ArchangelDM]

The helmet itself shows tons of wear on the top and around , which is a good sign of a used piece. What's not a good sign is that that TAC red triangle shows no wear whatsoever and sticks out like a sore thumb.

The chinstraps look aged to me ,

Closer photos should reveal all but as it stands I'm agreeing with the rest of the community here.

No warm fuzzies on this one

[Maple Creek]

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Of course we have to be very skeptical about this kind of thing given the level of fraud and fakery. I'll get better photos posted when I'm able - maybe later today.As for the talker chin cup, a large number of these were found recently in a box marked in stencil' "STRAP, CHIN LEATHER FOR HELMET M-2" see: http://www.ww2supply.com/supply.php?pagina=Headgear. The apparently were intended to be used as replacement chin cups for paratroopers. I think they are the same type used for the navy talker helmets, or at least very similar.

 

 

Ronny has a bad feeling about this one. Especially the talker chin cup in the grouping photo. More especially the poorly reproduced tac mark on the M1c. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Burning Hazard]

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Of course we have to be very skeptical about this kind of thing given the level of fraud and fakery. I'll get better photos posted when I'm able - maybe later today.As for the talker chin cup, a large number of these were found recently in a box marked in stencil' "STRAP, CHIN LEATHER FOR HELMET M-2" see: http://www.ww2supply.com/supply.php?pagina=Headgear. The apparently were intended to be used as replacement chin cups for paratroopers. I think they are the same type used for the navy talker helmets, or at least very similar.

 

Don't think there was such thing as "M2 Helmet" during WWII, the official US military designation was "Parachutist Helmet, M1" and later M1C when the swivel bail version came out, that crate is a collector created piece and those chin-cups are all modified Navy talkers.

[jkash23686]

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Of course we have to be very skeptical about this kind of thing given the level of fraud and fakery. I'll get better photos posted when I'm able - maybe later today.As for the talker chin cup, a large number of these were found recently in a box marked in stencil' "STRAP, CHIN LEATHER FOR HELMET M-2" see: http://www.ww2supply.com/supply.php?pagina=Headgear. The apparently were intended to be used as replacement chin cups for paratroopers. I think they are the same type used for the navy talker helmets, or at least very similar.

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't use that site as a reference, there is no real proof that what you are talking about ever happened and these aren't airborne cups. If its a cut down talker cup to me that would be another strike in the bad column.

 

Also you had mentioned the M1c, to my knowledge there is no rock solid proof that the M1c ever made it into combat during WWII in the ETO. The timeline of them being produced makes it pretty much too late for them to have arrived in the theater to have been used in combat, even for Varsity.

 

All the pics of the Op Varsity that I have seen the troops are using M2s, and regular infantry helmets. Not every Paratrooper had snaps on his straps.

 

I really only collect helmets so I cant really speak to the rest of the items in the group, but I am leaning towards at best this was a very small grouping that has been embellished with a few extra pieces, for what ever reason.

[URIK]

As for the talker chin cup, a large number of these were found recently in a box marked in stencil' "STRAP, CHIN LEATHER FOR HELMET M-2"

I'm pretty sure it's likely supposed to say Mk-2, and meant for the Navy Mk-2 talker helmet, which a lot of the Mk-2 chin cups are sold as "paratrooper" helmet chin cups.

[aef1917]

Supply of m1c helmets to the TOE had been begun by Jan. 26, 1945.

 

[Burning Hazard]

Just for quick reference regarding the M1C chinstrap length; compare it with an ATF reproduction and an original M1C, original is quite short.

 

My original M1C (not pictured), the chinstraps don't reach around the back when extended, you'd really have to stretch them to make them fit which would result in eroding the chinstrap material.

[Maple Creek]

Nobody has clearly and definitively answered my question about the meaning of the red triangle. My notion is that it's a tactical marking for the 507th PIR. The dot, which is only visible on the musette bag, would have some additional, but not yet identified, significance (company?).

 

As for the question of whether this is a WWII piece, or a WWII combat used piece, that's another discussion, no?

 

The main question of interest is whether the helmet is original and if so if it is 100% original. I've added some additional photos to help us evaluate the piece.

[Maple Creek]

[Maple Creek]

triangle detail

[Maple Creek]

liner

[Maple Creek]

liner